swagman
Established Member
Phillip; how many hand planes, and how many sharpening stones do you own and use. Home workshop, and not what you take to a job site.
regards Stewie;
regards Stewie;
Hindustan Honing Stone. (Country of origin USA).
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Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Three stones, probably four planes. The four is any perm from seven or eight, because I tend to sharpen them at the same time, not strictly because I need them. My point was only backing up others - that working tradesmen tended to own what they needed to, not much more. We don't need to justify our purchases (though the most expensive of mine was £30).
It may be worth considering that quarrying stones would have led to significant waste, was very costly and produced an inconsistent product. Modern manufactured stones can be made uniformly, of consistent quality, size shape and grit, and probably more cost effective. I'm speculating that this is probably what created the demise of the older natural stones. Just a thought?
deema":2i0klg7z said:
I suspect there is a parallel with woodworking in general. A point that one of the posters here brings up very often is that the demise of being able to make a living on furniture followed a period where every change was made so that lower and lower skilled workers could produce the furniture.
Mining and cutting stones would take reasonably skilled labor, especially stones that have enormous amounts of waste like Translucent arkansas stones, and a fair amount of expense to do the work of mining, transporting, etc. Manufactured stones probably don't involve much skilled labor, at least not for the majority of folks (the abrasives certainly aren't expensive, and the binders are generally something also relatively inexpensive), and there are no baked stones that show up with a flake or chip.
For all of the advantages touted for modern stones, I just don't see any of it materialize once one gets away from a guide (nor for knives, razors, etc). What does a guy with soft resin stones use to sharpen carving tools (the real answer to that is that most people buying resin stones never get that far, probably the bulk can't get past using a guide and counting sharpening strokes as opposed to using their hands and developing some craftsman sense about what needs to be done or what has been accomplished on a stone).
phil.p":eat0e34c said:
I wonder how many of us spend gobs of money unnecessarily for our day jobs if our hobbies aren't similar. I don't, nor do most people I know.
If I had come to woodworking as a trade, I would see extra spent money as a personal offence to myself.
swagman
Established Member
For whatever reason these traditional Natural Honing stones lost favour over recent times, if one chooses to experiment with their use, it doesn't take that much work to restore them a usable condition if your purchasing them 2nd hand.
The medium required to return them to flat are readily available at a cost that's not overly expensive. The cost of a sheet of float glass plus a 400 gram bag of loose 150 or 220 grit sic powder will provide a good return on your investment. The sheet of glass should give you 12 months of use on each flat surface, and a small bag of loose sic will likely last you 5 years +. Its also recommended you consider purchasing some sheets of 220 and 400 grit w & d sandpaper to mount on a smaller 1/2 sandpaper size float glass, to further refine the flat surfaces of the stone. And lastly, an aerosol can of spray adhesive to secure the w & d to the float glass. You should get at least 6 months use out of a 350g size.
At the end of the day, we all get to choose our own direction when it comes to the type of sharpening media being used. There are no rights nor wrongs when it comes the choice between synthetic, and natural stones. A combination of both is another worthwhile option to consider, as in my own case, where after hollow grinding, I prefer a slightly aggressive Norton Crysotolon oil stone, before moving onwards through 3 finer grit water stones.
As for the difference between freehand and using a jig, I see no valid reason why its become a choice between 1 over the other, when both strategies clearly offer their own unique advantage.
Stewie;
The medium required to return them to flat are readily available at a cost that's not overly expensive. The cost of a sheet of float glass plus a 400 gram bag of loose 150 or 220 grit sic powder will provide a good return on your investment. The sheet of glass should give you 12 months of use on each flat surface, and a small bag of loose sic will likely last you 5 years +. Its also recommended you consider purchasing some sheets of 220 and 400 grit w & d sandpaper to mount on a smaller 1/2 sandpaper size float glass, to further refine the flat surfaces of the stone. And lastly, an aerosol can of spray adhesive to secure the w & d to the float glass. You should get at least 6 months use out of a 350g size.
At the end of the day, we all get to choose our own direction when it comes to the type of sharpening media being used. There are no rights nor wrongs when it comes the choice between synthetic, and natural stones. A combination of both is another worthwhile option to consider, as in my own case, where after hollow grinding, I prefer a slightly aggressive Norton Crysotolon oil stone, before moving onwards through 3 finer grit water stones.
As for the difference between freehand and using a jig, I see no valid reason why its become a choice between 1 over the other, when both strategies clearly offer their own unique advantage.
Stewie;
Trafalgar
Established Member
swagman
Established Member
Excellent link; thank you Charles.
Stewie;
Stewie;
Trafalgar
Established Member
Enjoy!
Having developed an interest in wood carving, well wood hacking ATM, I have found that although waterstones will give you a good sharp edge they wear far too quickly hence my interest in harder stones. Washitas do seem to vary somewhat in quality so of the few I have a white coloured one seems to be the most consistent in use but I would not call this a finishing stone perhaps that is due to lack of experience. I do use a jig with modern steel and Japanese waterstones and as these stones also sharpen my Japanese knives very well I see no need to change. Old chisels and plane irons I do by hand mostly because they don't play nicely with jigs and they have nice big bevels anyway, not tried on the naturals as yet.
One thing I have found is a quite deep concavity both sides smack in the middle of the Washitas I have which probably goes a long way to explain why every secondhand old steel chisel or plane iron I have bought have had some some very interesting bevels on them. I don't doubt that the previous owners managed to get a sharp enough edge fit for purpose and do it a lot quicker than I ever will but I do wonder how. Still in the hunt for a good natural finishing stone though.
One thing I have found is a quite deep concavity both sides smack in the middle of the Washitas I have which probably goes a long way to explain why every secondhand old steel chisel or plane iron I have bought have had some some very interesting bevels on them. I don't doubt that the previous owners managed to get a sharp enough edge fit for purpose and do it a lot quicker than I ever will but I do wonder how. Still in the hunt for a good natural finishing stone though.
essexalan":7394p8v7 said:
Washitas are definitely different from stone to stone unless you get something labeled and graded from pike. Otherwise, they pretty much run from the lilywhites (being the softest and thus coarsest) all the way to waxy looking stones that will finish a razor, but that are not pore free like a hard arkansas.
As far as the stones with the dips in the middle, the users likely allowed their plane irons to pass on and off of the stones' edges, you'll get a flat tool back without a flat stone that way. The key to sharpness is being able to get your scratches to the edge and push the burr the other way. If you can't reach the burr, that's a problem, but a stone that's hollow can still reach a burr on a flat back without creating a bellied edge if the user is up to the challenge. A wide perfectly flat stone will cut less deeply at the very edge, though.
It's an interesting task for you to try sometime when you get one at a boot sale cheap, if it's just a little hollow, work with it and a plain carbon steel iron.
(I agree on the other tools, I've found most of the run of the mill japanese stuff to sharpen well on a washita - and stuff like iyoroi chisels that is really not quite as hard as its spec says is still harder than western tools and will result in a great edge on a washita, and the jigane/soft iron will wake the stone up a little bit without having to lap it. Only the really hard stuff stifles the washita, and so far as I can tell, only the higher end japanese stuff is actually as hard as its spec says and then that's not necessarily a blessing the closer you get to maximum hardness).
The white(ish) Washita I acquired is labelled "Governor No 1 Grade" and is quite fast cutting but not what I would call soft. Too late they have all been lapped flat but I get your idea, honing a 21/2" iron on a 2" wide stone will take a bit more practice, OK on the primary, iron slanted down the stone, but a bit wobbly honing a secondary bevel especially with arthritic fingers need to work on that. No problems with carving gouges following on from India oilstones and the stone stays nice and flat, intention being to get within stropping distance and the slate stone should fill this gap unless I find something else. My Japanese chisels are Iyoroi and they do sharpen up and hold an edge nicely, I think they were advertised as handmade when I bought them many moons ago and white steel #1.
Yes, soft is a very relative term. Pike used it for low density washitas, but they are not soft at all (they also used the term "hard and fine" for the finer labeled stones but there is little difference). You could use them for four centuries.
Narrow tools and laminated tools are the two things that will hollow a washita. If we just use very hard all steel tools that aren't narrow, washitas take on very little wear (they do get graded to a finer surface, though).
I'm not by any means badmouthing Iyoroi. I've had chisels from those with no name and an export stamp all the way to three kiyotada chisels. I like the not so hard types like the iyorois for day to day work. I can put a washita out and literally never do anything other than use the washita with them. The kiyotadas (and a set of older ouchis that I used to have) cannot be touched by the washita, and really no natural stone is very good at cutting their hard layer. It's an interesting demonstration of the skill of the smith to make them that hard, but not something I like as much in practice.
Narrow tools and laminated tools are the two things that will hollow a washita. If we just use very hard all steel tools that aren't narrow, washitas take on very little wear (they do get graded to a finer surface, though).
I'm not by any means badmouthing Iyoroi. I've had chisels from those with no name and an export stamp all the way to three kiyotada chisels. I like the not so hard types like the iyorois for day to day work. I can put a washita out and literally never do anything other than use the washita with them. The kiyotadas (and a set of older ouchis that I used to have) cannot be touched by the washita, and really no natural stone is very good at cutting their hard layer. It's an interesting demonstration of the skill of the smith to make them that hard, but not something I like as much in practice.
deema":5tyq1t6o said:
The e-book already exists. At least part of it. It is Henks book. You can easily google it out. Or here. Lokk on the bottom of the page for English version of different parts.
http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
"Too late they have all been lapped flat but I get your idea, honing a 21/2" iron on a 2" wide stone will take a bit more practice, ..." - essexalan
Here's a quote from Walter Rose in The Village Carpenter -
It is easier to sharpen a true edge on a narrow stone than a wide one. Thus I prefer the 1 3/4" width, which I have proved to be the happy medium, and I will not entertain the 2" width usually stocked by tool factors. The slight increase in width makes all the difference to the result, because the wider the stone is the greater the tendency to sharpen in the middle - a habit to which learners are prone - thus causing the stone to become hollow with wear."
Here's a quote from Walter Rose in The Village Carpenter -
It is easier to sharpen a true edge on a narrow stone than a wide one. Thus I prefer the 1 3/4" width, which I have proved to be the happy medium, and I will not entertain the 2" width usually stocked by tool factors. The slight increase in width makes all the difference to the result, because the wider the stone is the greater the tendency to sharpen in the middle - a habit to which learners are prone - thus causing the stone to become hollow with wear."
