Help needed please.

[Donald Sinclair]

The top of this fox’s head chair parted company with the frame several decades ago.

Reuniting them has been filed as too difficult.

I would now like to attempt a repair, but very little of the original joints are left.

Advice would be appreciated.

 

[CaptainBudget]

Bl***y **** it looks like the tenons have sheared in half there!

Best approach I can think is to try and remove what's left of the original tenons and replace with blocks of hard wood, making a Mortice and Loose Tenon joint.

Issues with that I can see however include splitting the mortice walls if done by hand, and making a pigs ear of it with a router/Domino jointer.

What tools/machines have you got and how confident do you feel in attempting either of the above?

 

[Jameshow]

Carefully drill and chisel out and make a loose tenon to fit.

Use an expanding PU glue to fill and gaps?

Cheers James

 

[bourbon]

+1 for a palm router, being VERY careful not to wander, small light cuts.

 

[Cabinetman]

Exactly as James said, it wasn’t what I would call a good design to start with which is why it’s failed, so when it does go back together, probably just keep it for show instead of constant use. Ian

 

[Jacob]

It's the sort of impossible repair which in the old days might be handed over to a blacksmith to make carefully shaped brackets to fit behind. I've seen them beautifully made, shaped to fit with faired-in tapered edges so you hardly notice them. You'd need to get a good wood joint first!
Easier if the back is flattish and uncarved

 

[Inspector]

My father used to repair furniture like that often. He would likely have made sure the rest of the chair was sound and if not repaired that too. If the rest of the chair is flexing due to loose joints anything you do will fail again quickly. What are the screws doing? Are they holding an earlier repair together? Is that repair holding? If not that will need to be dealt with too. So if the broken top pieces are not sound or clean enough to glue back you need to cut them off and put as close to a wood match as you can on, rough cut to be bigger than the finished areas. After the chair is re-glued you carve to match the busted stuff you cut off. Keep it so you know what it was like. You'll need to cut out the bits from the mortices. If it comes out easily with a chisel do so but if a lot of force is needed then I would use a small rotary file in a micro grinder or a Dremel to take out most of it and finish with chisels. Hide glue can be softened with hot water/vinegar (not soaked) and heat but the problem with that is the wood swelling and moving. After you have it clean you may need to glue in veneer or plane shavings and pare the mortice to size and get it clean again. The top of the back chair leg that is cut off will need to have a loose tenon made to replace it. The temptation to use gap filling glues or epoxies must be weighed against the inability to fix it in the future. It is an old chair and care needs to be exercised to keep from breaking anything else including reupholstering after so avoid pounding on it. If you aren't positive you have the skills the repairs are best left to someone that does. The economics of getting it done properly is a decision only you can make.

Pete

 

[Droogs]

Certainly looks old enough that it will be hide glue. I would disassemble thow whoole thing clean off all glue and redo using hide and for the back carefully do loos tenons, with perhaps small draw-bore dowels at the back.

 

[TheTiddles]

Does it go back together with no material missing? If so it’s not all that hard. Looks like loose tenons of plywood have been used, but then with those screws I wonder if you are going to be repairing a repair (which is often much harder), but it could be just a case of taking out the old tenons and and putting some new ones in.

If there’s chunks of material missing then you’re into a much larger piece of work where you need to scarf in new material, match the shape and repair the joint.

I’ve not seen many professional repairs, but those that I have seen were absolute carp. Don’t be afraid of having a go yourself, read a few articles or books, take it slowly and you’re there

Aidan

 

[MJP]

I would suggest as a first step you go watch several You Tube videos by Thomas Johnson Antique Furniture Restoration.

He does this kind of repair all the time and he'll give you some good ideas and the confidence to be able to attack it and do a good job.

Martin.

 

[recipio]

That looks like a very old piece - possibly 17 th century. ? The back splat seems to be missing as well. I think its a job for hand tools only. I'd remove the old tenons and make new ones by hand. They should insert by at least 20 mm into the mortises. You can use hide glue to make life easier for the next restorer !

 

[Donald Sinclair]

Bl***y **** it looks like the tenons have sheared in half there!

Best approach I can think is to try and remove what's left of the original tenons and replace with blocks of hard wood, making a Mortice and Loose Tenon joint.

Issues with that I can see however include splitting the mortice walls if done by hand, and making a pigs ear of it with a router/Domino jointer.

What tools/machines have you got and how confident do you feel in attempting either of the above?

Thank you for your diagnosis and suggested remedy.



The consensus view is, as you suggest, to repair using a loose tenon joint.

I have a biscuit jointer, a Fein Multimaster and a radial arm router (radial arm because the Pacemaker nurse banned ordinary routers amongst other handheld mains powered tools).

I no longer have the combination of power and precision needed to make a decent job with a biscuit jointer, so the radial arm router would be my tool of choice to remove the sheared tenon.

 

[Donald Sinclair]

Carefully drill and chisel out and make a loose tenon to fit.

Use an expanding PU glue to fill and gaps?

Cheers James

Thank you for your diagnosis and suggested remedy.

The consensus view is, as you suggest, to repair using a loose tenon joint.

 

[Donald Sinclair]

+1 for a palm router, being VERY careful not to wander, small light cuts.

Thank you for your diagnosis and suggested remedy.

Sadly I don’t have a palm router because 15 years ago the Pacemaker nurse banned ordinary routers (and many other handheld mains powered tools – a stroke of luck for my sons).

My workaround was to obtain a radial arm router which will do instead.

 

[Donald Sinclair]

Exactly as James said, it wasn’t what I would call a good design to start with which is why it’s failed, so when it does go back together, probably just keep it for show instead of constant use. Ian

When we were first married we lived close to the local auction hall and my wife bought the fox’s head chair because she liked the look of it. It proved to be a good chair to have beside the telephone table in the hall because it is very upright and the carved top wasn’t particularly comfortable to rest one’s head on, so calls tended to be mercifully short.

Now that we have cordless phones there isn’t much need to sit in the hall, so there is scope for an ornamental chair.

 

[Donald Sinclair]

It's the sort of impossible repair which in the old days might be handed over to a blacksmith to make carefully shaped brackets to fit behind. I've seen them beautifully made, shaped to fit with faired-in tapered edges so you hardly notice them. You'd need to get a good wood joint first!
Easier if the back is flattish and uncarved

Thank you for your diagnosis and suggested remedy.

Unfortunately there isn’t enough wood to work with, to get a sufficiently stiff bracket that would be inconspicuous. The back is also upholstered.

Funnily enough, we do have a chair where the top corners have been solidly repaired with inconspicuous metal splints. It belonged to my late father-in-law, who was a big heavy person. I don’t know if my mother-in-law noticed the repair when she bought it. It also requires a difficult repair - to a cross piece in the back.

 

[Donald Sinclair]

My father used to repair furniture like that often. He would likely have made sure the rest of the chair was sound and if not repaired that too. If the rest of the chair is flexing due to loose joints anything you do will fail again quickly. What are the screws doing? Are they holding an earlier repair together? Is that repair holding? If not that will need to be dealt with too. So if the broken top pieces are not sound or clean enough to glue back you need to cut them off and put as close to a wood match as you can on, rough cut to be bigger than the finished areas. After the chair is re-glued you carve to match the busted stuff you cut off. Keep it so you know what it was like. You'll need to cut out the bits from the mortices. If it comes out easily with a chisel do so but if a lot of force is needed then I would use a small rotary file in a micro grinder or a Dremel to take out most of it and finish with chisels. Hide glue can be softened with hot water/vinegar (not soaked) and heat but the problem with that is the wood swelling and moving. After you have it clean you may need to glue in veneer or plane shavings and pare the mortice to size and get it clean again. The top of the back chair leg that is cut off will need to have a loose tenon made to replace it. The temptation to use gap filling glues or epoxies must be weighed against the inability to fix it in the future. It is an old chair and care needs to be exercised to keep from breaking anything else including reupholstering after so avoid pounding on it. If you aren't positive you have the skills the repairs are best left to someone that does. The economics of getting it done properly is a decision only you can make.

Pete

Thank you for your analysis of the problems and detailed advice for repairs.

The rest of the chair is sound.

I think the screws were fitted as a precaution, I can’t see any crack in the top that they might have fixed. It is curious that the screw slots are at varying angles. My late Uncle George, who was a pattern maker turned woodwork teacher would have taken off marks for that.

I will try to follow your advice on the chair leg with the broken bit of carved wood, and intact tenon. I hope carving won’t be necessary, but if it is I will delegate that task to my wife (or to a granddaughter - after lockdown). I am tempted to use a Multimaster with a very narrow blade to clean out most of the bits from the mortise, and finish up with a Dremel.

The overwhelming consensus of the forum advice is to make a loose tenon repair to the other chair leg.

Your point on care during reupholstering is well made.

Having spent a large part of my life depositing small particles of soot on sheets of paper, I am selfish enough to enjoy spending time making less than perfect repairs to our old furniture in my retirement. I doubt if the chair in question is of much financial value.

 

[Donald Sinclair]

Certainly looks old enough that it will be hide glue. I would disassemble thow whoole thing clean off all glue and redo using hide and for the back carefully do loos tenons, with perhaps small draw-bore dowels at the back.

Thank you for your diagnosis and suggested remedy.

Thank you for pointing me at drawbore dowels. I have not met them before, but they look like a good idea. I will ask my grandson to turn me some drawbore pins.

 

[Donald Sinclair]

Does it go back together with no material missing? If so it’s not all that hard. Looks like loose tenons of plywood have been used, but then with those screws I wonder if you are going to be repairing a repair (which is often much harder), but it could be just a case of taking out the old tenons and and putting some new ones in.

If there’s chunks of material missing then you’re into a much larger piece of work where you need to scarf in new material, match the shape and repair the joint.

I’ve not seen many professional repairs, but those that I have seen were absolute carp. Don’t be afraid of having a go yourself, read a few articles or books, take it slowly and you’re there

Aidan

Thank you for your comments and encouragement.

There is no material missing yet, but I haven’t tried to remove the broken carved bit at the top of the leg.

It appears that the tenons were part of the chair legs.

I think the screws were fitted as a precaution, I can’t see any crack in the top that they might have fixed.

 

[Donald Sinclair]

I would suggest as a first step you go watch several You Tube videos by Thomas Johnson Antique Furniture Restoration.

He does this kind of repair all the time and he'll give you some good ideas and the confidence to be able to attack it and do a good job.

Martin.

Thank you for your advice.

Thomas Johnson’s You Tube video on repairing an Italian chair is very relevant.

His long case clock video would have been comforting when I restored my 19th century grandfather clock.