Have a look at this Jacob!

[Sgian Dubh]

Back in the dark days of my training an old cabinetmaker said to me something like, "If you cannae even shairpen your tools sonny, ye'll niver be a cabinetmaker." I've removed some of the swear words and generally softened the tone. Back then I think the only sharpening guide or jig that might have existed was a Stanley or a Record device, I can't recall which brand, but I think it had a fairly narrow wheel at the back and you were meant to fiddle about fitting the plane iron or chisel on a plate above the wheel with a clamp thing to hold it in place. All the guys in the workshop seemed to consider such an 'aid' a worthless piece of junk and sharpened their standard plane irons, straight edged chisels, gouges and the like freehand on a combination oilstone, with a slip or two for odds and ends.

There was no fuss about it and it was a case of "Tool's blunt, better sharpen it," and that was it. They could all plane wood, chop mortices, trim shoulders, pare slivers off wood, and make joinery and furniture, some of them very well, and others not so good. It just seems so odd to me that something so basic and essential to the trade has now become so difficult, challenging and involved with people poncing around with elaborate jigs and guides and electron microscopes and the like to inspect the results of their drawn out efforts. I've always found you don't need magnifying glasses and microscopes to tell you how good a job you've done of sharpening-- the first time you put tool to wood tells you immediately if you've done a good or useless job. And isn't that usually the point? Although I suppose for some people the main hobby is tool sharpening, and not woodworking.

Anyway, I can see how a simple guide or jig might be useful to an intermittent woodworker, but in all honesty I can't really fathom out why a professional woodworker needs such a thing (or multiple types of sharpening jigs or guides) but then I'm maybe old fashioned in that I let the cutting action of the tool on the wood tell me if it's doing the job it's meant to or not, and if it's not, I'd better slop it up and down a sharpening stone a bit until it's sharper. Slainte.

 

[Corneel]

http://www.richardjonesfurniture.com/Articles/lesson-in-sharpen/lesson-in-sharpening.html

I have been browsing your website a bit and stumbled on this nice piece of literature. I remember that I've been fuming about that piece, some two or three years ago, when I was still firmly attached to my nice little honing jig.

Now, I wish I had such a nice grumpy old basterd watching me over my shoulders. But I have to find it out all for myself in my wooden shed back in the garden.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Richard - 100%. If my knives, chisels, planes, etc. do not perform as I expect them to, I hone and sometimes grind them. I then return to using them where they perform as expected. It's neither a science nor an art form.

 

[Tony Spear]

Please remind us.
I know they have been raised but I can't recall anything interesting. Not that I'm bothered - if flat is necessary then so be it. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong as a rounded bevel certainly works perfectly well most of the time.

PS come to think I've asked this question many times but have never received a convincing answer

I expect Jacob that all of this is like water....duck etc.

BUT, I knew a famous angler/writer who revolutionised coarse fishing after WW2 and used to get some real aggro at times for his "opinions" in the Angling press

He once said to me that "there's no reason for picking an argument with Dickie Walker :

Firstly, I don't ever say this is true or this is fact - I merely express a theory or opinion.

Secondly:

if you can prove me wrong however, I'm quite prepared to admit it and apologise.

And he caught what was the biggest Carp caught in Britain for years and years!

 

[woodbrains]

....... I'm baffled why there is such a fixation with honing guides. .....

Mike.

It's because most sharpening is easier and quicker without the gadgets, that's all.
It's important because sharpening is absolutely the key thing which makes it all possible and it seems a pity that so many have been persuaded that it's difficult.

Hello,

It may well be quick and easy without a jig, it may be more predictable and repeatable with one. The point is, as long as the tools are sharp, it doesn't matter a jot how they got sharp. I agree that sharpening is fundamental, but the method of doing so is irrelevant. It is surprising, however, how many people just don't know what truly sharp is. If a jig provides them with that epiphany, then they should not be knocked. In the world of lone craftsmen finding things out for themselves, because there is no one to provide training these days, little aids might just help people along.

Just seen Richard Jones' article on the subject. It is one aspect of achieving the result, sure, but the only way, I think not. After all, it could be argued that discounting a two penny honing guide as unnecessary, when showing a picture of a blingy infill panel plane, might just be too ironic. :wink: I bet there are CNC machines in Leeds college, though.

Mike.

 

[mark w]

It always makes me smile when people say things like, "fiddling around with a jig" or "a guide is probably OK for a beginner" and "a few swipes on an oil stone and it was sharp", well jigs or in this case a honing guide is really easy to use there is no fiddling about and yes they are good for beginners and pros alike, if it is meant that only beginners use honing guides well that`s incorrect and nothing more than pomposity on the part of the person saying it and if you can get a truly sharp edge with just a few swipes on your oil stone, well good for you but then that blade probably isn`t A2 cryogenically hardened steel.

PS Was Richard Jones` tutor South African!

 

[mark w]

One of the clearest demos is Paul Sellers' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM
I do much the same, and also with oil stones.
Basically every time you hone you are also backing off the bevel a touch, instead of periodic re-grinding. If a burr doesn't come up quickly you go to a coarser stone and then back to finer.
You can carry on like this indefinitely, unless you need reshape or take out a chip, then you go back to the grindstone.

PS

Y......but unlike you I am always looking and trying new and or different methods, .......

I take you have a had a go with the Paul Sellers set up then? Did it not work?
NB I arrived at my current method after trying many new and or different methods, including jigs, scary sharp etc. I didn't just snatch it from thin air!
In fact I discovered it by accident when working out how to put a rounded bevel on a mortice chisel. Ridiculously easy, so I then asked myself why not do this on all edges.

You have done it again Jacob picking parts of the discussion to suit your opinion, lets get an answer about grinders, you said you don`t use them because they over heat the tool, how do you get around this with your sander or linisher? Or do you agree they too overheat the tool which then makes your comment worthless.

 

[Jacob]

........
You have done it again Jacob picking parts of the discussion to suit your opinion, lets get an answer about grinders, you said you don`t use them because they over heat the tool, how do you get around this with your sander or linisher? Or do you agree they too overheat the tool which then makes your comment worthless.

1 They do a nice controllable flat bevel which is what I want. Not hollow ground, or horribly nibbled if you just have a small one. Also does a nicely controlled edge shaping at 90º for a camber or for an accurate straight edge
2 They cut a lot cooler than a bench grinder. OK so you can get better stones but see 1 above.

I tried it first with an ordinary Bosch sander but sparks nearly set fire to it and I thought it wise to move on to a Sorby Proedge which is slightly OTT but a very nice tool.

Freehand honing is OK with A2 steel BTW. I thought it would be difficult but it isn't.

 

[mark w]

It was the oil stone I was referring to, not the method of sharpening A2 steel, you won`t get it sharp with a few swipes on an oil stone. I agree with you free hand sharpening is easy, really really easy, just the same as sharpening with a guide.

 

[Jacob]

It was the oil stone I was referring to, not the method of sharpening A2 steel, you won`t get it sharp with a few swipes on an oil stone. ....

Seems to be no prob at all. I must be doing it wrong!
It's a brick red coloured Norton double sided and I also use a finer buff coloured synthetic stone. Both very cheap and last forever.
2 things I do to improve oilstone use:
1 take swarf off with a magnet- makes it cleaner and saves on oil
2 freshen the surface every now and then with a 3m Diapad (which I just happened to have, other abrasives will do I expect).

.....free hand sharpening is easy, really really easy, just the same as sharpening with a guide......

It's much easier without guide. I can freshen up an edge in less time than it takes to fit it into a guide, and the guide makes things difficult in other ways too.

 

[MIGNAL]

I've just been on a forum and I've been told that it's impossible to produce a square edge on Chisel/Plane blades when freehand sharpening! (but it is possible with a jig)
You see it's all to do with the way that tools are tempered (only understood by engineers and metallurgists), which results in one edge of the blade being harder than the other edge. Hence it's not possible to get it square using freehand methods and despite your best efforts!
The guide lot really do come out with some amazing theoretical beliefs. No doubt you will need a crowbar to remove the damn things from their death grip. :shock:

 

[Cottonwood]

I've just been on a forum and I've been told that it's impossible to produce a square edge on Chisel/Plane blades when freehand sharpening! (but it is possible with a jig)
You see it's all to do with the way that tools are tempered (only understood by engineers and metallurgists), which results in one edge of the blade being harder than the other edge. Hence it's not possible to get it square using freehand methods and despite your best efforts!
The guide lot really do come out with some amazing theoretical beliefs. No doubt you will need a crowbar to remove the damn things from their death grip. :shock:

:lol: :lol: :lol: =D>

 

[Corneel]

For me the epiphany came when my slowly accumulating heap of old rubish started to contain some tools I couldn't sharpen. A router plane, a scrubplane with an agressive camber, some gouges, a drawknife. Nothing very special. It was especially the scrubplane which worked like a lightbulb in my head. I had some rough, thick wood at that time, that I wanted to be a lot thinner, so I had to sharpen the thing and resharpen freehand a couple of times. These weren't the best edges ever, but it worked.

So, I started to think, why do I sharpen the easy stuff with a jig and doing the difficult stuff without? That was the first step. The next was realising how much faster, and less cumbersome free hand sharpening really is.

I still use the crutch of the hollow grind. So the next step is going to be if I can master this convex bevel thing in a daily routine. Well, after I finish my sawbuilding project of course.

 

[mark w]

It's much easier without guide. I can freshen up an edge in less time than it takes to fit it into a guide, and the guide makes things difficult in other ways too.

I`ll say once more, guides are easy to use, freehand sharpening is just as easy, guides don`t make it any harder.

Mignal, you visited another forum to find something misleading about the use of a honing guide or so you believe, I don`t know if that`s true or not, what I do know is, I don`t have to visit any other forums to find rubbish talked about freehand sharpening, Jacob, you and a few others are right here.

 

[MIGNAL]

Sorry mate but don't tell me what I did and did not try to 'find'.
It's a forum that I visit and contribute to on a regular basis. I didn't try to 'find' anything. Don't start inferring things that you know nothing of.
The topic was on honing Guides, specifically the Veritas MK11.
The inevitable happened. People started taking sides, although mild mannered.
Was his theoretical assumption correct? It's quite obvious that it's complete BS. It's obvious to anyone with the most basic bit of knowledge on sharpening.
The other month I took 1/4" off a straight (beveled both sides) 5 mm carving chisel, freehand on a coarse Oil stone.
Why didn't it turn out like a skew chisel?

 

[Jacob]

.....
I`ll say once more, guides are easy to use, freehand sharpening is just as easy, guides don`t make it any harder......

Say it as often as you like but it won't alter my own personal experience. It was a great relief to be free of guides/jigs and finally be able to sharpen quickly and efficiently.
Maybe I was doing something wrong with the jigs? I've still got them in a drawer somewhere - I might have another go and see if I was missing something. I must say I haven't felt the slightest inclination to dig them out over the last few years.

 

[mark w]

Sorry mate but don't tell me what I did and did not try to 'find'.

Mate now am I? I thought I was something beginning with W according to you, you still haven`t told me what you meant by that.

The topic was on honing Guides, specifically the Veritas MK11.

Excellent guide, simple, accurate and made by an excellent company.

It's a forum that I visit and contribute to on a regular basis. I didn't try to 'find' anything. Don't start inferring things that you know nothing of.

I think you are quite angry, I don`t know why, its only sharpening tools we are talking about, but if you weren`t looking for it, why bother repeating it here, keep it on your other forum, it wasn`t helpfull.

Was his theoretical assumption correct? It's quite obvious that it's complete BS. It's obvious to anyone with the most basic bit of knowledge on sharpening.

So you struggled with it then.

 

[Jacob]

Mark the mistake you are making is in assuming that because you can't do it then neither can anyone else.

Some people struggle to sharpen pencils, which is about the same level of difficulty as freehand sharpening (for a small chisel at least).

 

[Cottonwood]

Bradlye Wiggin's manages ok without kiddie bike stabilisers :idea:
I bet Ginger baker never used a click track to record drums either :idea:
I'll get my coat.... :roll:

 

[Jacob]

Hmm. I practice banjo with metronome, but only when nobody is looking.

The way jigs are sold is a bit like remedies for fictitious ailments. Remember Horlicks and "night starvation"? :shock: Nobody actually died from it but a lot of people took no chances!