Have a look at this Jacob!

[Corneel]

Not everybody is negative about this sharpening device:

http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.nl/2013/10/peter-galbert-drawsharp-tool-review.html

 

[mark w]

Please remind us.
I know they have been raised but I can't recall anything interesting. Not that I'm bothered - if flat is necessary then so be it. I'm quite happy to be proved wrong as a rounded bevel certainly works perfectly well most of the time.

PS come to think I've asked this question many times but have never received a convincing answer

That`s because you ignore all the convincing answers and blunder on regardless.

 

[Corneel]

Maybe I didn't listen carefully either, but what is so wrong with a convex bevel? I use the hollow grind method myself, but don't actually see anything wrong with the convex one. Any fundamental disadvantages?

 

[mark w]

Maybe I didn't listen carefully either, but what is so wrong with a convex bevel? I use the hollow grind method myself, but don't actually see anything wrong with the convex one. Any fundamental disadvantages?

Its not concave!

 

[Jacob]

.....
PS come to think I've asked this question many times but have never received a convincing answer

That`s because you ignore all the convincing answers and blunder on regardless.

OK stop beating about the bush just give me one convincing answer! I've been waiting for several years now. :shock:

 

[mark w]

.....
PS come to think I've asked this question many times but have never received a convincing answer

That`s because you ignore all the convincing answers and blunder on regardless.

OK stop beating about the bush just give me one convincing answer! I've been waiting for several years now. :shock:

No point, you will just ignore it.

 

[Jacob]

...........
That`s because you ignore all the convincing answers and blunder on regardless.

OK stop beating about the bush just give me one convincing answer! I've been waiting for several years now. :shock:

No point, you will just ignore it.

No I will pay close attention and if possible do a comparison in the workshop. I'm all ears. Roll up! Wossit all about?

 

[Corneel]

Maybe I didn't listen carefully either, but what is so wrong with a convex bevel? I use the hollow grind method myself, but don't actually see anything wrong with the convex one. Any fundamental disadvantages?

Its not concave!

Euh, yes, that's pretty obvious. But what is the fundamental disadvantage of the bevel not being concave?

 

[Jacob]

Yes come on we want to know. It's a bit quiet out there! Surely someone has an idea?
I use chisel and planes quite a lot. They all have rounded bevels - except when freshly re-ground to remove chips etc. If I'm doing it wrong I want to know how and why.

Come on don't be shy.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Yes come on we want to know. It's a bit quiet out there! Surely someone has an idea?
I use chisel and planes quite a lot. They all have rounded bevels - except when freshly re-ground to remove chips etc. If I'm doing it wrong I want to know how and why.

Come on don't be shy.

I suspect I'm going to regret bothering to reply, but - Jacob, why are you so bothered about it? Convex bevels work OK. Ground primary/honed secondary bevels work OK. Concave ground bevels honed either flat-on-stone or with a micro-bevel (or whatever anybody wants to call them) work OK.

As long as it's sharp it works OK. Why the fuss about how different people get to a sharp edge?

 

[Jacob]

Yes come on we want to know. It's a bit quiet out there! Surely someone has an idea?
I use chisel and planes quite a lot. They all have rounded bevels - except when freshly re-ground to remove chips etc. If I'm doing it wrong I want to know how and why.

Come on don't be shy.

I suspect I'm going to regret bothering to reply, but - Jacob, why are you so bothered about it? Convex bevels work OK. Ground primary/honed secondary bevels work OK. Concave ground bevels honed either flat-on-stone or with a micro-bevel (or whatever anybody wants to call them) work OK.

As long as it's sharp it works OK. Why the fuss about how different people get to a sharp edge?

I agree.
I'm bothered about it because to seems to bother a lot of other people and they get quite sarky about convex bevels.
NB there's no particular virtue in a convex bevel except it makes freehand rapid sharpening a lot easier. That's the whole point.

 

[bobbybirds]

Yes come on we want to know. It's a bit quiet out there! Surely someone has an idea?
I use chisel and planes quite a lot. They all have rounded bevels - except when freshly re-ground to remove chips etc. If I'm doing it wrong I want to know how and why.

Come on don't be shy.

I suspect I'm going to regret bothering to reply, but - Jacob, why are you so bothered about it? Convex bevels work OK. Ground primary/honed secondary bevels work OK. Concave ground bevels honed either flat-on-stone or with a micro-bevel (or whatever anybody wants to call them) work OK.

As long as it's sharp it works OK. Why the fuss about how different people get to a sharp edge?

I agree.
I'm bothered about it because to seems to bother a lot of other people and they get quite sarky about convex bevels.
NB there's no particular virtue in a convex bevel except it makes freehand rapid sharpening a lot easier. That's the whole point.

Earlier this year after spending too much time trying to argue with Jacob that I see nothing wrong with using a jig to sharpen if that is what makes you feel better and get a better edge for your purposes, I had publicly stated that I would spend some time trying to learn how to sharpen freehand and experiment with a convex bevel.

Move ahead to today and I have been moving closer and closer to sharpening almost exclusively freehand. I am not purposefully trying to make a convex bevel, but the end result seems to end up that way all on its own, and I can't say I am noticing any difference in useable sharpness for what I do. I was having more difficulty with the wider blades than narrower ones, but even then I am getting things down quite well now.

If I need to reset a bevel completely because of a damaged edge I still use a honing guide (I have no grinder) simply because I can just lean into it and sharpen at a faster pace while removing a lot of material quickly, but really that is it.

So in the end, while I still think that if someone likes using a jig and it works for them, that is great! But now that I am freehand sharpening more and more, I am glad I spent the time to learn as it is quite freeing to not rely on anything but the stones, and I am noticing that sharpening does take less time out of my work than it used to (not crazy different, but definitely noticeable).

So Jacob, while I don't always appreciate your preaching ways, I am definitely big enough to throw a thank you your way for being responsible for pushing me over the edge into learning something new and helpful! If I make it over the pond one day I will have to buy you a few beers...

 

[CONGER]

Yep... well said.... thanks.

Now on with the banter?

My neighbour Charlene bought a dozen of those all blingy aluminium jigs... she uses them in the swinger club she goes to.

She says they are machine washable.

I wonder if she knows about the LED lights? Hmmm!

-g-

 

[mark w]

I`m sorry to take so long to come back with an answer, I was catching up on Emmerdale. To be clear I am talking about grinding bevels not honing bevels and to start with we must agree that any grinding bevel (concave or convex, hollow or round, pick your term) will only let us hone it a set amount of times before it becomes difficult and impractical to hone, we then (in most cases) return to the grindstone and re-grind the bevel. I have found that grinding a concave (hollow) bevel allows more "hones" before the edge becomes to thick too hone and thus I am regrinding less frequently. I have also found that a hollow ground chisel offers less resistance when cutting, the round of a convex blade needs more force to be driven in, just think about the shape of the edge of both types of grind, the hollow grind offers a thinner more delicate edge and thus offers less resistance.
I believe David Charlesworth and James Krenov both prefer (with regards to the latter, preferred) hollow grinds.

I am not really bothered which way you prefer to grind your edge tools, what does bother me is the dogmatic way Jacob puts his point of view on almost everything, "Jacob says, therefore it is right and true, amen."
Please carry out your experiment Jacob, which I am already sure will prove the opposite

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Re. The drawknife honing jig. Whilst it is not something that I would have a use for, if someone where to use the jig and then go on to make a beautiful Windsor chair, why would anyone give a rat's behind how they got thier shave sharp? Similarly, no one is going to get any bonus points for making a lousy chair, having done all the tool sharpening freehand. I'm baffled why there is such a fixation with honing guides. Every tool (almost) a woodworker uses is a blade holding jig of some sort. Isn't a travisher just an inshave set into a jig with depth limiter, depth adjuster and low centre of gravity handles? How the bodging community must have thrown their hands up in horror, when the travisher was invented.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

....... To be clear I am talking about grinding bevels not honing bevels and to start with we must agree that any grinding bevel (concave or convex, hollow or round, pick your term) will only let us hone it a set amount of times before it becomes difficult and impractical to hone, we then (in most cases) return to the grindstone and re-grind the bevel.

Don't agree. With freehand rounded bevel sharpening you never have to regrind, until an edge is chipped or damaged by misuse. In any case I would grind flat on a blt sander or linisher.
I can see that a hollow ground edge could be advantageous for some ops such as shaving or slicing a sunday roast, but not really for woodwork

....
I am not really bothered which way you prefer to grind your edge tools, what does bother me is the dogmatic way Jacob puts his point of view on almost everything, "Jacob says, therefore it is right and true, amen."

It's just that you have to be a bit assertive against the massed orthodoxy; woodworkers often seem to be a very obedient and conservative lot, always tipping their caps to St Jim, Aunty Joyce, our Dave et al. :lol:

Please carry out your experiment Jacob, which I am already sure will prove the opposite

Bin there dunnit. That's how I used to do it and have been getting away from. I don't like bench grinders - too easy to overheat, and I don't like hollow ground edges - too fragile, and basically my sharpening has improved enormously since I set out to make it simple.
I suggest you have a go at the counter experiment - have a look at P Sellers round bevel sharpening vids and have a go yourself.

 

[Jacob]

....... I'm baffled why there is such a fixation with honing guides. .....

Mike.

It's because most sharpening is easier and quicker without the gadgets, that's all.
It's important because sharpening is absolutely the key thing which makes it all possible and it seems a pity that so many have been persuaded that it's difficult.

 

[Corneel]

I think the devil is in the details. When sharpening a freshly grinded edge, every method works quickly. It is over time when the differences appear in maintaining that edge. Like I wrote, I use the hollow grind method. But I find myself back at the grinder quite often and grinding isn't quick. While maintaning the edge on the stones, quite soon the 1000 stone isn't fast enough anymore to raise the wire edge, so I switch to the 400 stone.

At the other hand I hear from people sharpening their edges without ever using a grinder. So I am curious. How do they do that? How does it work over longer time? Something to experience with, I guess.

BTW, I don't know about the resitance of a convex or concave edge in the cut, when the honing angle is the equal. It would require quite a setup to really meassure the difference.

 

[mark w]

You don`t agree Jacob, how unusual!
Hollow grinding is good for woodwork and is good for all aspects of it.
My Tormek grinder doesn`t overheat anything, must be something to do with the water. I believe a sander and linisher also heat up a tool, you are contradicting yourself now.
Assertive, no, insular is a more apt word.
I could bore you with my work history, trust me Jacob I have been taught how to sharpen using different methods and have been proficient in all, but unlike you I am always looking and trying new and or different methods, hollow grinding, honing with a honing guide is best. (I`m just being assertive).
I won`t bother looking at Mr Sellers vids, I don`t rate him at all, another dogmatic person.
Late for work now, will catch up with your latest comments when I get home.

 

[Jacob]

One of the clearest demos is Paul Sellers' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM
I do much the same, and also with oil stones.
Basically every time you hone you are also backing off the bevel a touch, instead of periodic re-grinding. If a burr doesn't come up quickly you go to a coarser stone and then back to finer.
You can carry on like this indefinitely, unless you need reshape or take out a chip, then you go back to the grindstone.

PS

Y......but unlike you I am always looking and trying new and or different methods, .......

I take you have a had a go with the Paul Sellers set up then? Did it not work?
NB I arrived at my current method after trying many new and or different methods, including jigs, scary sharp etc. I didn't just snatch it from thin air!
In fact I discovered it by accident when working out how to put a rounded bevel on a mortice chisel. Ridiculously easy, so I then asked myself why not do this on all edges.