Has anyone tried replacing viceroy bearings?

[graduate_owner]

My Denford Viceroy lathe seems to have developed a vibration and I suspect bearings. I have put a bar in a chuck and can feel some movement. So has anyone done a bearing replacement and can offer any advice, also tell me what type of bearings I need and where to buy them?

K

 

[Farmer Giles]

Funny you should say that G_O, I was contemplating the same. Lathes.co.uk reckon they are "Timken taper roller-bearings or ball races" however if you look at the general arrangement below

Then the headstock are a pair of 6208-ZZ (or you can use 2Z) and the intermediate shaft a pair of 6205-ZZ (again 2Z are similar)

I'm going to pay a couple of quid more and get the SKF energy efficient version with high tech grease.

Same goes for the other two. They are ubiquitous and virtually every bearing shop sell them, ebay etc.

EDIT - the diagram and more are all on the Denford forum
EDIT2 - I would check out the old ones first before buying, there were different versions and parts can change through the manufacture period so who knows, maybe some did have Timken taper roller bearings.

Cheers
Andy

 

[graduate_owner]

Thanks Andy. Do you know how the bearings are removed? I'm not sure I feel confident enough to tackle it without prior information.

K

 

[Farmer Giles]

Looking at the diagram, it means taking off the aluminium end caps, slide the shaft out, there may be a grub screw in the pulley. This will expose the bearing which should be pushed out from behind or with a slide hammer. Not sure until I take a look.

The reason I'm changing mine is mainly age of the grease in them, the turning resistance is a bit high, a slight noise but not too bad. I think I may change the intermediate shaft bearings too, then I can change the nut link belts back to the original A section belts. According to the diagram, the top belt is A section 5' 6" long, but it doesn't say if this is inside, outside or pitch length. However that is 1676mm and belts do come with 1676mm inside length but not outside or pitch so I'm guessing it means inside. The bottom belt is the same length.

If you can wait a while I'll let you know how it goes, I'm at work all this week and working away so it will be next week before I get chance to do much, first step is to take off the two alloy covers and check if the bearing are what the diagram says they should be, usually the bearing numbers are stamped on the bearing, there is a numbering convention amongst manufacturers

Cheers
Andy

 

[graduate_owner]

Thank you Andy, that is very helpful of you. I will wait to hear from you before I get stuck in.

K

 

[Farmer Giles]

Hi G_O

I did get chance to take off one aluminium cover, they are the 6208 bearings, it looks like mine have been replaced at least once, the ones used are only sealed once side, i.e. Z bearings, not ZZ or 2Z, see here for bearing notation explanations. See below for bearing details of the bearings fitted to my lathe's headstock.

I'm not going with the bearing I specified in an earlier mail, they are C3 rated which means they have extra clearance capability for when running hot, I don't think my lathe will ever run hot

I'll let you know what I order

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

Just checked the diagram, both upper and lower belts are 5'6" indicating an A66 belt, however if you look at the parts list document, the lower one is 4'6" (A54) So I will have to wait until I'm near the lathe before ordering. I think the parts list is correct as the standard lathe, single ended bowl lathe and the short bed lathe parts list all say the same thing and they share the same basic design.

 

[graduate_owner]

Thanks Andy. I just looked online and these bearings are very reasonably priced at about £10-£12 each for well known makes. I shall wait to see how things go with you first though, especially regarding getting the old ones out.

K

 

[Farmer Giles]

I went ahead and ordered the SFK bearings, having read into it, the C3 clearance won't make much difference but the 30% improvement in efficiency in 3 sets of bearings may add up to a bit more torque at the headstock. I used them in the motor, so I'll use them in the intermediate and headstock too. I also took a gamble and ordered an A66 and an A54 belt. All from Henderson's bearings.

So this weekend I hope to have a fully working lathe again and contemplate spinning my first bit of wood

Cheers
Andy

 

[graduate_owner]

Well I am wondering now if my bearings do need replacing. I took the alloy covers off, fitted the chuck and bar as before, and there was hardly any movement. Perhaps the chuck wasn't fully tightened on to the headstock spindle before. Anyway I shall keep watching this thread so please keep posting details as you make progress.

K

 

[Farmer Giles]

I managed to get an hour in today before the youngest's brass band concert took precedence. The bearings and belts arrived yesterday.

I took the outboard headstock alloy cover off revealing a locking collar and a locking nut.

There are two allen grub screws needed to take the collar off. You can see that this has been off before due to the marks where the grub screw used to be. When taking off the collar, file off any burrs around the spindle locking holes first or it will jam.

Then it is time to get the locking nut off. There is an allen grub screw on the opposite side of the notch. The marks on the notch indicate that somebody has given it some welly to take this off by unscrewing a right hand thread.

However this scan of an original Denford drawing of the locking nut indicates it is a left hand thread.

I haven't had a go at locking the spindle and moving the locking nut yet, run out of time, once that is free there is a grub screw in the headstock pulley as well as a keyway. It appears that once the nut is free and the pulley is undone then the shaft will simply slide out towards the tailstock. Fat chance of it being simple but I'll leave that for tomorrow.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

I had an hour at this morning, I had to make it look like I was working on putting the floor in the new extension but managed to do get a bit done during my frequent trips to the workshop for "tools"

First put the spindle lock mechanism back on, lock the spindle and tap the lock nut with a drift. It is a left hand thread unsurprisingly.

Here's the lock nut, it has a raised area so it only touches the bearing on the shaft side of the bearings so the bearing can rotate when the nut is locked. I shall be writing LH thread on the visible side of the nut before replacing the lock collar. I checked before trying to move it but the next person might not, it will save them much swearing and gnashing of teeth

Next I removed the spindle lock mechanism and loosened the grub screw in the headstock pulley and took the belt off. I marked where the pulley was on the shaft with an indelible pen. You can't see it in this picture, it's hiding behind the belt. I will give the shaft a bit of a rub down with emery paper to remove rust and give it a bit of oil so the shaft can move through the pulley as I take the shaft out of the bearings.

I then gave the spindle a playful tap with a rubber mallet and a wooden drift to see how tight it was. Nothing doing so it looks like a push or pull job. In my case pushing is probably easier as I have a small cast faceplate for the outboard thread. So will rig up a method to squeeze them out, I have an idea however I need hand like an octopus to line it all up without scratching the paint so I have given my mate a call, he will be around later. Here's the spindle without lock nut.

To be continued when I have thawed out

 

[Farmer Giles]

Well, we have the shaft out, it wasn't a big struggle but involved a bit of jiggling. I don't have any photos of it in progress. My neighbour is more used to bearing removal than me, he works as a toolmaker in the aerospace industry, I fly a desk in IT

We didn't need any pressure from clamps etc. He gave the outboard shaft a bigger thump with a copper faced mallet than I did and it shifted so we continued. Both bearings stayed with the shaft initially and came out of the headstock, however the pulley didn't move even after removing the grub screw. Cleaning the shaft with emery paper and a bit of oil is key here. We pushed the shaft out towards the inboard shaft and used the inside of the headstock casting to move the pulley off its keyway. We used a piece of steel bar that had a shoulder on it as a drift, the drift just fit inside the outboard shaft and the shoulder pushed on the shaft. Here's the key.

Once the pulley was loose we then had to get one of the bearings off before we could pull the shaft out as the pulley is too big to come through the bearing holes. This has to be the outboard bearing as the inboard bearing is against a solid shoulder. To do this we put the bearing back into the headstock housing and we had a bit of luck and the shaft popped out of the bearing allowing us to remove the shaft after taking the pulley off. Here's the shaft with the inbound bearing still attached, this needs to be pushed all the way down the shaft to get it off as it is up against the shoulder, I'll clean the shaft up first before doing this.

The bearing now in the housing came out with light taps top and bottom alternatively with a drift.

I then spotted that the supplier has sent me the wrong bearings in error, 6207 not 6208 I'll get more sent to me. In the meantime I'll get the bearing off the shaft and start on the intermediate pulley bearings.

I would definitely get an extra pair of hands with the headstock shaft removal, holding the drift hammer, pulley and looking what is happening and whether the pulley or bearing is moving all at the same time is difficult.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

I only had 10 minutes today, just enough to get the intermediate pulley out.

First undo the upper belt tensioning adjusters completely. You have to do this a bit on each side at time. These are indicated in red below.

Once out the pulley drops away, its aluminium so not heavy but you don't want to drop it on the motor pulley and cause damage. Here you can see the adjusters, and that the bearings are held in with circlips.

Now I have the belts free I can see if the parts list or diagram is correct. Both wrong, the diagram shows two A66 belts AKA 66" inside diameter, the parts list indicated one A66 for the upper and an A54 for the lower. The A54 is more like the upper long belt, the lower one is much shorter. I shall measure them properly tomorrow. First impressions are that there is plenty of adjustment on the intermediate pulley so the A54 will be fine up top, that is the one you don't want to get wrong as its a pain to replace having to take both the main shaft and intermediate pulley out to replace, the bottom belt is easier as its just the intermediate pulley.

I have a large stash of belts from various renovations so I may have one in stock that fits the bottom.

Cheers
Andy

 

[Farmer Giles]

Not much progress, busy on building work, however I did get chance to look at the belts. The top belt looked a bit smaller than the A54, I guessed an A51 then I searched for Viceroy belts, which I should have done in the first place, and a guy on the Denford forum just recently changed his belts and confirmed that the top is A51 and the bottom is A43. So where the guy who drew the drawings back in the 70s got his dimension from I know not, he must have been overwhelmed with Brut Splash on fumes when he drew them

So two belts on order and my correct bearings are here so hopefully should be able to get this together next week and finish off the thread. Given the belts are pigs to change, I have gone for the premium Dunlop versions, only about a quid extra, hopefully wont' need changing until the next time the bearings do.

"Dunlop ‘Premium’ belts now feature a multi-layer construction. A stronger and more durable polyester tension cord placed between layers of polychloroprene, with a rubber base that is wrapped in an abrasion resistant long-life fabric cover give a higher dynamic load and add flexibility which can overcome many causes of failure and inefficiency. This advanced construction and improvement in component design and material enables the belt to accommodate heavy tension loads with minimal elongation, resulting in the delivery of up to 40% more power than traditional standard wrapped belts. With energy efficiency capability of up to 97%, assuming the drive has been correctly designed, there is a life expectancy in the region of 25,000 hours or almost three years continuous operation."

I'm putting a wiring diagram on the inside of the door, I shall add bearing and belt sizes to it, always handy to know.

Cheers
Andy

 

[minilathe22]

Have you considered putting more than one belt over, and tying the spare belt out of the way? It looks like you could do this for the lower belt at least.

 

[Farmer Giles]

Have you considered putting more than one belt over, and tying the spare belt out of the way? It looks like you could do this for the lower belt at least.

I must be getting old, I had to read that several times before I got my head around it, suddenly the light bulb went on as I reached for my beer :idea:

I could do, but I also have the old nutlink belts so could resort to putting that back on if necessary. I'll see if the two new belts fit first, the guy on the Denford forum had a similar lathe, but with the wider cabinet. I should be the same size belts but you never know.....

I don't think I'll need to, if the pulleys are aligned correctly then they should last ages....

I collected my fourth Meddings drill yesterday so my workshop tinkering time was limited to winching that up into the workshop today. There is method in my madness, I intend to make 3 good ones out of the four and sell at least one off, if not two.

 

[graduate_owner]

This has been very interesting and informative. Thanks for taking the time to describe in so much detail, and all those photos make things so much clearer. If my bearings need replacing ( not sure yet) I will be much more confident now.

And - what's wrong with having 4 Meddings drills anyway?

K

 

[jw00d]

Thanks for a very informative thread. I think my Viceroy needs a bearing change as I'm getting the beginnings of a screeching noise when turning between centres. It's fine when turning bowls and no noticeable play in the spindle but I guess it's possible the bearings have never been changed before and somethings gone bad.

Also... any chance you could post a couple more pictures of the spindle locking mechanism on your Viceroy please? Mine doesn't have that part and looks quite useful so would like to try and make a substitute if possible.

Thanks again, and hope you've found some time to use your lathe now.

Jamie

 

[Farmer Giles]

Also... any chance you could post a couple more pictures of the spindle locking mechanism on your Viceroy please? Mine doesn't have that part and looks quite useful so would like to try and make a substitute if possible.
Jamie

Here you go Jamie, here's the spindle lock, not much to it. Diagrams are probably on the Denford forum, you have to search through a vast PDF of various related machines to find the scan.

I haven't got around to using it yet, still awaiting the belts which hopefully will arrive today but the post is variable this time of year.

In the mean time I changed the inboard headstock bearing. First I used some fine emery cloth to buff up the shaft and lubed it up (ooh Matron!) I then used a piece of steel pipe with ID just large than the diameter of the shaft and a hide mallet and wood block and knocked the shaft out of the bearing. You can see the shoulder on the right, the shaft is slightly thinner in the middle so didn't need pushing all the way off, just where it sits and again where the outboard bearing sits before it came off the shaft all together.

I took the circlips off the intermediate pulley bearings, these bearing do feel quite gritty and have a lot of rolling resistance so are probably the ones causing the problem.

In terms of your problem with squealing, I guess it could be belt slippage as you are putting on more load when turning between centres, try some belt dressing spray first, its a lot easier than changing the bearings!

Cheers
Andy