Handcutting Dovetails - A Question.

[Philly]

HI Folks
I re-watched Rob Cosmans DVD "The Alan Peters Approach" on the weekend (and very interesting it is too) Rob was explaining how Alan taught him how to use the caliper method of laying out dovetails and then he said "shall I cut them or you?" Mr Peter's then take's Rob's dovetail saw and proceeds to cut the tails. All very exciting you say......
Watching Alan cut the dovetails was interesting. He first started the cut along the top (end grain edge) of the board and as soon as the line was established dipped the saw down to cut down the marked line on the front face of the board. I was watching him cut and noticed that he never took a stroke longer than about 60mm, using only the middle part of the saw. (You could tell this because wax had been rubbed along the side of the saw to lubricate it and only a small section was removed when sawing was complete).
I was quite relieved (but shocked) to see him cut like this. Remember - this is the chap who taught Rob C to cut dovetails, saw cut to saw cut.
I find when cutting joinery that if I take full strokes with a saw my accuracy goes out the window. I put this down to to me being out of practise (or "rubbish" :lol: ) I find it difficult to get the "locomotive" action going and keeping a dead flat forward/back motion. With my shoulder, elbow and wrist involved a certain amount of sideways rotation always happens.
So is it just me? Is this a waste of teeth on a saw? Should I get Mike W to make me a 4 inch long dovetail saw?? :wink:
Cheers
Philly
P.s. Is it just me or is Alan Peters furniture awesome (in a 70's manner)

 

[David C]

Philly,

Divider method I think! Described in my third book, brilliant wheeze and much simpler and quicker than any other, IMO.

It is worth remembering that Alan is now sadly very ill. It is not certain that that is how he used to cut dovetails when younger.

Amazing maker, immaculate work and what a volume of work. Some of the early seventies design is somewhat dated but I think his best stuff ages very well.

David Charlesworth

 

[Paul Chapman]

Rob was explaining how Alan taught him how to use the caliper method of laying out dovetails

Hi Phil,

I was with Rob (the Woodbloke one :wink: ) the other day and he showed me that method of laying out dovetails. Really great - and so simple 8)

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

He first started the cut along the top (end grain edge) of the board and as soon as the line was established dipped the saw down to cut down the marked line on the front face of the board.

That's interesting. I found my dovetails came on leaps and bounds once I stopped trying to do that and cut across the corner to establish both angles straight off.

I was watching him cut and noticed that he never took a stroke longer than about 60mm, using only the middle part of the saw...
I was quite relieved (but shocked) to see him cut like this....
I find when cutting joinery that if I take full stroked with a saw my accuracy goes out the window.

Well I often do short strokes too, but often because a full stroke would take me to, and maybe beyond, the full depth of cut with no opportunity to wriggle a bit (not that I do that, obviously. Nope, right on the line every time... 8-[] )

Is this a waste of teeth on a saw? Should I get Mike W to make me a 4 inch long dovetail saw?? :wink:

Would it not depend on the thickness of stock you were cutting? I mean a 4" saw might be great for single drawer sides, but what about cutting both sides of a 3/4" thick carcass? Perhaps what you're really finding is you need different sizes of dovetail saw for maximum efficiency? Is this, in fact, simply seeking justification for a bulk order to Mike? :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

Watching Alan cut the dovetails was interesting. He first started the cut along the top (end grain edge) of the board and as soon as the line was established dipped the saw down to cut down the marked line on the front face of the board.

Yep, this is exactly what I do most times. I find I need a sort of reference point at the front of the cut

I was watching him cut and noticed that he never took a stroke longer than about 60mm, using only the middle part of the saw.

Does RC do this too?

Interesting. I tend to actually try and use the full length of the blade in an effort to cut through with as few strokes as possible as I hope this increases accuracy. This 60mm approach sounds like it might be worth a try - any excuse to cut some dovetails will do :wink:

So is it just me? Is this a waste of teeth on a saw? Should I get Mike W to make me a 4 inch long dovetail saw?? :wink:

Yeah, a speciality saw specifically for the forum :lol:

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Yeah, a speciality saw specifically for the forum :lol:

Ummm... I wonder what it would be called? A Gloater perhaps? and how big? "mines bigger than yours" and it's got more teeth :lol: should we not do a poll we might get a discount off Mike for a bulk order :lol:

 

[George_N]

I don't want to do Mr. C out of a book sale (it is on my wish list) but how does the caliper method work for setting out dovetails?

 

[woodbloke]

Philly - cutting dovetails depends on many factors IMO and the quality of the saw is paramount and something you don't have to worry about :lol: . The grip on the handle should be firm but not fierce and the body stance should be such that your elbow and arm need to move in one 'plane', this is best achieved by standing slightly sideways to the bench front, left foot closest if right handed. Your eyes need to be ideally directly over the top of the blade and the line that you saw to should be dead vertical....and use all the saw blade in a smooth light stroke. All you have to do then is saw vertically which ain't too hard. Use the divider method as advocated by DC as its just so simple. Joints should fit straight from the saw, but sometimes a little very careful tweaking is required ont the sockets only. This is how I taught kids to saw D/T's for 20 odd years and with some practice is does work.

 

[bugbear]

I find when cutting joinery that if I take full strokes with a saw my accuracy goes out the window. I put this down to to me being out of practise (or "rubbish" :lol: ) I find it difficult to get the "locomotive" action going and keeping a dead flat forward/back motion.

Small motions reduce the circular motions that pivoted elements (e.g. arms and legs) tend to generate, making them more straight line.

The smaller the segment of an arc, the more closely it approximates a straight line.

Of course, long strokes achieve more work

BugBear

 

[woodbloke]

I don't want to do Mr. C out of a book sale (it is on my wish list) but how does the caliper method work for setting out dovetails?

Easier done with pics, will go out to the 'shop directly (Alf word) and take a sequence - Rob

 

[woodbloke]

Timber should of course be shot square and the shoulder knife marked in all round. Measure along the line from each side about half the thickness of the timber plus a couple of mm, mark and construct one large dovetail as shown in first pic below:

Decide how many tails are needed (3 narrow ones in this case) and set the caliper to roughly space off the distance needed across the end of the wood to obtain a narrow gap at the top of each pin. Place one point at one line and step off twice to make 2 dots as in the second pic starting at the right hand side:

Keeping the setting the same, do the same from the left hand side so that you will end up with two pairs of narrowly spaced dots in the centre of the timber, the first pair of dots have been made into a line in the third pic below:

Now simply mark out the dovetails from the two pairs of lines on the end of the wood as shown:

Clear as mud...easy peasy - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

A Master Class from the Master 8) 8) =D>

Very helpful, Rob.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

While I have on occasion also used the callipers to mark off the tails, last night I was watching an interview of Krenov on Woodworks and was reminded of the opposing view he takes. He said that he found uniform placement of tails sterile. As we all are aware, Krenov has championed the placement of tails as reflecting in part art and in part improving strength. Not for him the Cosman/Peters approach.

Incidentally, I bought and watched the Alan Peters DVD when it first came out (about a year ago?). I was struck with how frail and ill Alan looked (although I had not seen him ever before). Alan barely made it through the presentation. Rob showed a very caring and protective manner. I must say that I was quite moved.

Rgards from Perth

Derek

 

[bugbear]

Timber should of course be shot square and the shoulder knife marked in all round. Measure along the line from each side about half the thickness of the timber plus a couple of mm, mark and construct one large dovetail as shown in first pic below:

Do my eyes behold a Robert Wearing dovetail marking gauge?

BugBear

 

[dedee]

Derek,
I rather cheekily agree.
Of course the chances of me producing a DT that looks even a fraction similar to a machine made one are non-existant so I'll stick with the "uniform placement looks sterile" excuse.

Andy

 

[woodbloke]

Derek of Oz wrote:

He said that he found uniform placement of tails sterile.

I agree and its quite easy with the dividers to amend the process as you proceed across the board so that the tails gradually get wider but the pin distance remains the same....this only looks effective on boards of over say 200mm wide IMO
BugBear wrote:

Do my eyes behold a Robert Wearing dovetail marking gauge?

Yup, about the best D/T marker that's not on the market...well worth the time and little effort needed to make it ...this one made to 1:7 slope - Rob

 

[David C]

Rob,

Splendid photos of the divider method!

Wish someone had showed me 30 years ago.

I learnt it from Rob Cosman, who got it from Alan Peters who got it from Edward Barnsley, (presumably).

How come Joyce who was a contemporary of Barnsley did not put it in his book?

The other methods available are far more cumbersome IMO.

David Charlesworth

 

[David C]

George,

Why not insist your local library get a copy? That's a sale of sorts.....

Alternatively cheap on Amazon.

best wishes,
David

 

[mambo]

Yup, about the best D/T marker that's not on the market...well worth the time and little effort needed to make it ...this one made to 1:7 slope - Rob

can we see it please with dimensions would be nice

 

[Philly]

Mambo
You need Robert Wearing's book "The Resourceful Woodworker" - page 53 has the plans. A great book with more jigs than you can shake a stick at. Get "The Essential Woodworker" at the same time, wonderful stuff.
Cheers
Philly