hand plane

[Corneel]

Mignal, i've observed that too in my wooden smoother. If it doesn't want to take a fine cut anymore or it seems to be "grabby" somehow, it usually is a matter of a concavity in front of the mouth. Easilly fixed. I also have made a Krenov plane with an Ipe sole, and that thing wants to warp all over the place. But it's easilly fixed too.

My Stanley #4 came to me very very flat, like wise my #7. In the past I have done the flattening dance on a Handyman plane, what a waste of time that was... So afterall, I know nothing about the virtue of spending loads of time on flattening the sole of a metal plane. Wait, I've also flattened a blockplane once. That was an easy job, allthough I learned to check with a straightedge all the time to prevent it from going convex.

Paul Sellers posted a blog yesterday about another feature of the planesole: Relieving the edges. I think he's on to something.
http://paulsellers.com/2013/07/rewo...=Feed:+paul-sellers-blog+(Paul+Sellers'+Blog)

 

[bugbear]

Paul Sellers posted a blog yesterday about another feature of the planesole: Relieving the edges.

Interesting - that's the exact opposite of Japanese practise, where they keep the edges of the sole (almost) sharp; so that shavings and dust on the workpiece are pushed out of the way, not ridden over.

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I always put a 2mm round bevel on the front and back of the sole - it helps prevent tear out when going over proud knots or badly aligned butt joints. Anything that gets trapped is insignificant.

Having read P.S. , I'd not really thought to do the sides, but I can see the sense in it if that's the type of work you're doing.

 

[G S Haydon]

Tape was quick clean and easy[/quote]
Yebbut the wet makes it a lot faster - and it's flatter as there is no tape in the way so you can run off the edge of the paper and use the whole area. You can even do far ends of a long plane (if it's a bit concave) on two separate pieces at the same time. NB it's a good idea to store the paper (after it has dried) between boards to keep it flat.[/quote]

Jacob, I think you might be a closet toolie what with you nice flat bevels form your sorby pro edge and your abrasives stored to tune up that hand plane at a moments notice, whatever next, American novelty planes :wink:

Caveat - Posted for fun, banter, smiles not confrontation

 

[GazPal]

Paul Sellers posted a blog yesterday about another feature of the planesole: Relieving the edges.

Interesting - that's the exact opposite of Japanese practise, where they keep the edges of the sole (almost) sharp; so that shavings and dust on the workpiece are pushed out of the way, not ridden over.

BugBear

We're not Japanese, plus wooden bodied planes tend to be their forte and are quite different to their mostly heavier metal bodied counterparts.

Relieving plane sole edge certainly helps one avoid inadvertently dinging surfaces as you work - at speed or otherwise - and also assists when planing contrary grain around knots. I've made a habit of easing edges since before my apprenticeship years. Such practice also helps avoid/reduce the possibility of inadvertently nicking an otherwise sharp corner and potentially marring a workpiece before you realise what's happened. Aged 14 I passed my woodwork O level at school and was gifted a brand new Record #04 by the woodwork teacher. By some miracle I and another two boys were the first to pass our woodwork O level in the history of the school we attended and our reward was a hand plane each, because we'd found apprenticeships as joiners and a cabinetmaker (Literally left school Friday and began work the following Monday). Exposed edges on the freshly cast plane bodies were immediately chamfered with flat file and emery paper as part of the initial set up process, because it helps ease the breaking-in process and the plane flows across uneven surfaces more readily.

I can't say I've ever experienced a plane ride across shavings whilst working, although work residue isn't allowed to gather on surfaces being planed.

 

[Jacob]

.....
Jacob, I think you might be a closet toolie what with you nice flat bevels form your sorby pro edge and your abrasives stored to tune up that hand plane at a moments notice, whatever next, American novelty planes :wink:

Caveat - Posted for fun, banter, smiles not confrontation

Had to buy an alternative to the belt sander when it started smouldering due to sparks/dust in the casing. The sparks go around with the belt and hit the same spot of the casing like a torch. Sorby a bit pricey but very well put together.
I've been round the houses - you have to try these things (it can't all be boollox but most of it is!) - had a few goes at flattening plane soles etc. I gave up on a concave no7 and sold it on but with hindsight I could now do it quite easily (coarse paper on machine bed + white spirit). But that plane was the only one which really needed it - you couldn't plane a long straight edge.
And have had American novelty planes but sold them on too.
Now have just one (thoroughly local) novelty plane - a Clifton 4, which is very nice but a bit extravagant and unnecessary. The others are all the usual rubbish but they work OK. Have 2 posh blades (Hock and a Jap Smoothcut) which are different but with no dramatic advantage. Have a few stayset cap irons which are very good for quick honing.

The trouble is there is so much misinformation out there - especially on the sharpening and fettling front - you have to be totally sceptical and work it all out for yourself. Even the humble marking gauge gets a regular knocking - you are supposed to buy a stupidly expensive american novelty version which doesn't work very well or waste hours modifying the one you have got for no apparent reason; to go faster perhaps? Just add stripes - same effect for less effort

 

[bugbear]

Paul Sellers posted a blog yesterday about another feature of the planesole: Relieving the edges.

Interesting - that's the exact opposite of Japanese practise, where they keep the edges of the sole (almost) sharp; so that shavings and dust on the workpiece are pushed out of the way, not ridden over.

BugBear

We're not Japanese, plus wooden bodied planes tend to be their forte and are quite different to their mostly heavier metal bodied counterparts.

Relieving plane sole edge certainly helps one avoid inadvertently dinging surfaces as you work - at speed or otherwise - and also assists when planing contrary grain around knots. I've made a habit of easing edges since before my apprenticeship years. Such practice also helps avoid/reduce the possibility of inadvertently nicking an otherwise sharp corner and potentially marring a workpiece before you realise what's happened. Aged 14 I passed my woodwork O level at school and was gifted a brand new Record #04 by the woodwork teacher. By some miracle I and another two boys were the first to pass our woodwork O level in the history of the school we attended and our reward was a hand plane each, because we'd found apprenticeships as joiners and a cabinetmaker (Literally left school Friday and began work the following Monday). Exposed edges on the freshly cast plane bodies were immediately chamfered with flat file and emery paper as part of the initial set up process, because it helps ease the breaking-in process and the plane flows across uneven surfaces more readily.

That all sounds most reasonable - but Sellers (in his "How to Flatten a Plane Sole" Video) is advocating a very wide bevelled margin on the sole, not the gentle softening of the arris you describe. Indeed he uses the "Ruler Trick" to get a super low angle.

He calls it a "feathered edge". Having made this, later in the video he uses a file, and hand held SiC to knock of the sharp corner, which I think is the operation you're referring to.

Edit; here's the video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQyjLV92224

BugBear

 

[GazPal]

That all sounds most reasonable - but Sellers (in his "How to Flatten a Plane Sole" Video) is advocating a very wide bevelled margin on the sole, not the gentle softening of the arris you describe. Indeed he uses the "Ruler Trick" to get a super low angle.

He calls it a "feathered edge". Having made this, later in the video he uses a file, and hand held SiC to knock of the sharp corner, which I think is the operation you're referring to.

Edit; here's the video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQyjLV92224

BugBear

I know his method well and Paul's interpretation represents yet another step when fine tuning hand planes. Planes perform effortlessly and - I feel - with more balanced control during use when prepared in this way. Whilst lateral convexity potentially decreases the amount of sole in direct contact with the workpiece, it's shape more closely matches the camber of the plane iron. It's an extremely good set up.

 

[yetloh]

I don't know by how much Paul rounds off the edges of his planes but I'm not sure I buy the idea about conforming with blade camber. Scrub planes aside, in my opinion, the only time there is any point in a camber is for finishing shavings so that no tramlines are created or left, in which case the camber needs to be only a tiny fraction thicker than the shaving, which is not much more than buggerall. Perhaps most people over- camber their blades.

Jim

 

[GazPal]

I don't know by how much Paul rounds off the edges of his planes but I'm not sure I buy the idea about conforming with blade camber. Scrub planes aside, in my opinion, the only time there is any point in a camber is for finishing shavings so that no tramlines are created or left, in which case the camber needs to be only a tiny fraction thicker than the shaving, which is not much more than buggerall. Perhaps most people over- camber their blades.

Jim

The degree of camber involved is minimal and barely perceptible. A gnat's whisker and extremely close to none at all.

Cambered irons only for finish planing? You must have arms like Popeye and the patience of Job if - excluding scrubbing - you're regularly reducing stock using un-cambered edges.

 

[bugbear]

Cambered irons only for finish planing? You must have arms like Popeye and the patience of Job if - excluding scrubbing - you're regularly reducing stock using un-cambered edges.

Agreed - camber is not good on jointmaking planes, but most stock prep planes can benefit from camber - in varying amounts...

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I don't know by how much Paul rounds off the edges of his planes but I'm not sure I buy the idea about conforming with blade camber. Scrub planes aside, in my opinion, the only time there is any point in a camber is for finishing shavings so that no tramlines are created or left, in which case the camber needs to be only a tiny fraction thicker than the shaving, which is not much more than buggerall. Perhaps most people over- camber their blades.

Jim

More camber = faster material removal. So all planes should be cambered IMHO, except those which need the full edge - rebate/shoulder planes etc.
Camber is also good for very finer finishing as it's much likely to cut without tearout compared to trying to dip the whole edge in. In fact straight edges make planing really difficult.

 

[yetloh]

Gary,

I think if you read my post again, it will be apparent that my exclusion of scrub planes was from a minimal camber, not from any camber at all. That was certainly my intention. I don't have a scrub plane and don't often remove significant amounts of stock by hand - that's why I have a planer/thicknessser, life is too short - but each to his own.

As to Jacob's comment, a friend who is a professional maker of fine furniture of 30 years standing does not camber any blade, neither do I. It works for us.

Jim

 

[Jacob]

Before the days of obsessive stone flattening, jigs etc it was difficult to keep any blade straight and in fact nobody bothered much as you can see from most old stones and (untouched) old tools. Doesn't seem to have affected the work at all.

 

[GazPal]

I don't know by how much Paul rounds off the edges of his planes but I'm not sure I buy the idea about conforming with blade camber. Scrub planes aside, in my opinion, the only time there is any point in a camber is for finishing shavings so that no tramlines are created or left, in which case the camber needs to be only a tiny fraction thicker than the shaving, which is not much more than buggerall. Perhaps most people over- camber their blades.

Jim

Gary,

I think if you read my post again, it will be apparent that my exclusion of scrub planes was from a minimal camber, not from any camber at all. That was certainly my intention. I don't have a scrub plane and don't often remove significant amounts of stock by hand - that's why I have a planer/thicknessser, life is too short - but each to his own.

As to Jacob's comment, a friend who is a professional maker of fine furniture of 30 years standing does not camber any blade, neither do I. It works for us.

Jim

Jim,

You may well have a planer/thicknesser and kudos to you and other users for doing so (I also own jointers and thicknessers among other workshop plant), but many amateurs and non-shop based professionals reading this fora won't have the facility to own or utilise one.

Hence such interest and discussion within the Hand Tools forum concerning hand tool set up. There's a genuine ongoing desire to try and help others wishing to learn adequate hand tooling skills. I assume you'd be well and truly snookered if your planer/thicknesser broke down and production/stock preparation ground to a halt because your tools weren't set up to perform well when more muscle power and skill related hand to eye co-ordination proves necessary.

At 60 years of age I've been a professional cabinetmaker for almost 46 years. Numerous friends, existing colleagues and former apprentices have worked for similar timescales within the trade. No bragging or name dropping, but very few good professional craftsmen/women suffer tunnel vision favouring machine work - unless wood machinist - to the exclusion of task specific hand tools, or opt to use hand planes without cambered irons. Hand tools were the basis of mine and many others training, primarily due to the need for high skill levels and as back up for situations where plant breaks down, so production wouldn't grind to a total halt when a machine/machines chose not to co-operate.

I've highlighted both problem comments, but your last statement - to Jacob - contradicted your theoretical slant on how planes should be set up using cambers. I'm glad you're able to work without cambering your plane irons, but life is so much easier when they're cambered.

 

[bugbear]

You [Jim]may well have a planer/thicknesser and kudos to you and other users for doing so (I also own jointers and thicknessers among other workshop plant), but many amateurs and non-shop based professionals reading this fora won't have the facility to own or utilise one.

Personally I prepare stock by hand because I want to, and enjoy it.

Woodwork (and most else I get up to in my workshop) is done purely for pleasure, with any results merely incidental. It's all about the journey.

BugBear

 

[GazPal]

You [Jim]may well have a planer/thicknesser and kudos to you and other users for doing so (I also own jointers and thicknessers among other workshop plant), but many amateurs and non-shop based professionals reading this fora won't have the facility to own or utilise one.

Personally I prepare stock by hand because I want to, and enjoy it.

Woodwork (and most else I get up to in my workshop) is done purely for pleasure, with any results merely incidental. It's all about the journey.

BugBear

Me too, when time permits, as I've never stopped enjoying working timber and crafting things by hand. The drive behind my statement primarily concerned the point that not everyone owns/wants to own and use labour saving plant for whichever reason is relevant to him/herself on a personal level.

 

[Jacob]

I do both but I do like using hand tools wherever practical. Sometimes they are the most effective by far. Frinstance I've been doing a very trad staircase:
32 mm bullnose tread housing cut with brace and bit - very precise and very quick, not to mention no noise. Routered the rest - I hate routers.
Shoulders to the string tenons - knife, 2 1/2" chisel to pick out a v groove, 14" S&J tenon saw (very rusty!). Quicker than setting up a hand electric saw or router and dead precise
Tenons cut with the same big chisel and trimmed with Stanley 78 .
Housings for scotia moulding with 1/2" chisel
etc etc.

The big 2 1/2" chisel is very useful all over the place. Picking out knife lines is good because the width guarantees you don't go in too deep and also stay straight. Then its good for easing edges on housings, and/or undercutting for a tight fit. Good for splitting off waste to form tenons - you have to swing it slightly from side to side to give a bit of a slicing cut and I guess this is why slicks have long handles. Good for easing shoulders and so on.
It'd probably remove a toe if I dropped it as it's a heavy bogger, and sharp. Just replaced the handle - hedgerow ash the perfect material as it's free, comes in all the right sizes and already has a hole dead central (pith).
PS top tip - replacing handles; fit the chisel first and only then shape the handle to align with the chisel. Doing it the other way can be very difficult.

 

[G S Haydon]

Sounds like your having fun. If you had stairs to do on a regular basis do you think a brace and bit would be viable? I can't see it. A jig and a heavy duty router although noisy make quick light work of this task. If I was doing it for fun for sure I would grab some hand tools.

 

[GazPal]

I do both but I do like using hand tools wherever practical. Sometimes they are the most effective by far. Frinstance I've been doing a very trad staircase:
32 mm bullnose tread housing cut with brace and bit - very precise and very quick, not to mention no noise. Routered the rest - I hate routers.
Shoulders to the string tenons - knife, 2 1/2" chisel to pick out a v groove, 14" S&J tenon saw (very rusty!). Quicker than setting up a hand electric saw or router and dead precise
Tenons cut with the same big chisel and trimmed with Stanley 78 .
Housings for scotia moulding with 1/2" chisel
etc etc.

The big 2 1/2" chisel is very useful all over the place. Picking out knife lines is good because the width guarantees you don't go in too deep and also stay straight. Then its good for easing edges on housings, and/or undercutting for a tight fit. Good for splitting off waste to form tenons - you have to swing it slightly from side to side to give a bit of a slicing cut and I guess this is why slicks have long handles. Good for easing shoulders and so on.
It'd probably remove a toe if I dropped it as it's a heavy bogger, and sharp. Just replaced the handle - hedgerow ash the perfect material as it's free, comes in all the right sizes and already has a hole dead central (pith).

I also enjoy the peace and quiet that accompanies hand crafting. Especially after a noisy shift at work, but mostly because I enjoy using and making things with hand tools and the resulting relaxation. By habit I always wear steel toe capped footwear when working, as I hate hanging around waiting for treatment in A&E departments. I have had more than my fair share of stitches and broken bones and carry a scar from a "drive-by" router incident when my brother's router decided to shed it's bit (Faulty collet) and the resulting missile struck me - like a bullet - in the thigh. It took an age to clean the bleeding wound of denim fragments and I'm trying to keep my current medical files down in size to three volumes. :lol:

I've never owned a slick, but suppose I could convert one of my larger chisels for use, as they're an extremely handy tool when framing-out, etc..

Your staircase project sounds like an interesting one. Has it many landings, open stringers, balustrades, etc?