Hand held belt sander for plane iron grinding

[John Brown]

I just watched Paul Sellars making a scrub plane out of a No 4.
I have a cheap and crappy No 4 that I'd quite like to repurpose in this manner, but currently lack a bench grinder. I do have a big Makita hand held belt sander, however, and wondered if it's a viable tool for reshaping a plane iron. Any tips or advice welcome, even things as elementary as direction of grind, i.e. I know with bench grinders the the wheel comes towards the edge, rather than trailing, would this be the same on a belt, and if so, is there a way to stop the blade being thrown at my face.

 

[deema]

I've used my Makita belt sander for all sorts of reshaping tasks......just make sure you clean it carefully before using it with metal and do not attach the dust bag. The sparks can set anything combustible on fire which would ruin your day!

 

[D_W]

Put it upside down in a vise, use a coarse belt, tape the trigger so it stays on and work on the platen. I used an upside down belt sander like that when I first started.

 

[Mark A]

Position the sander so that the belt rotates away from you, otherwise they can catch.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[ED65]

Have you decided on your edge radius John?

Using a belt sander is a good way to do major reprofiling, sometimes better than with a grinder because they so easily overheat the steel near the edge. But depending on the amount of metal you have to remove and the hardness of the steel it isn't impossible to do this by hand without dying of boredom, either on good 80 grit paper/cloth or a coarse diamond plate.

If you do want to go with the sander depending on the shape of the Makita you might not be able to hold it in the vice, or you might not want to since it can block vent holes which can go bad very quickly! If you can't use the vice directly it may be possible to zip tie the handle to a piece of wood which you then clamp down or hold in the vice, seen a few pics of that done online.

I know with bench grinders the the wheel comes towards the edge, rather than trailing, would this be the same on a belt

You run the belt moving away from you.

 

[D_W]

I wouldn't cut vent holes. My sander's handle is high enough that I could get it to stay in the vise clamping only the handle. It'll be running continuously and blocking its ability to cool is a bad idea.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that they're not particularly accurate because they don't have that hard of platens or that great of belt tension, so you will want to do a shallower primary angle than you'd do on a grinder. The benefit of having a slack belt and floppy platen is that it's much less likely to burn the edge of a blade.

 

[John Brown]

Thanks to all. I think I can clamp the handle in my newly installed vice, but if not, I know I can in my cheap workmate imitation. Will try vice first, as the bench is fairly stable.

"You run the belt moving away from you." And trail the iron, so it can't dig in?

 

[D_W]

Thanks to all. I think I can clamp the handle in my newly installed vice, but if not, I know I can in my cheap workmate imitation. Will try vice first, as the bench is fairly stable.

"You run the belt moving away from you." And trail the iron, so it can't dig in?

Yes, especially if the belt is loose. It will do a little bit of dubbing thus making a shallower primary (which is no big deal as I find that arrangement a lot on vintage planes before I reset them - presumably, the trades using them knew they could extend the time between grinds and make the tool easier to keep in shape on a single stone).

Hypothetically, you get more heat with a trailing edge, but that's easy to counter by using a coarse belt. 46 grit or whatever is common would be a good way to go. The coarser the belt, the lower the level of heat.

As ED said, if you can't clamp the handle in a vise, you can probably clamp the handle itself and then put the bottom side of the clamps in the vise. It's not a particularly dangerous activity to anything but the sander itself (the potential of a fall).

 

[John Brown]

Thanks, handle clamps very nicely in vice. May give it a go tomorrow.

 

[ColeyS1]

John, is it the belt sander with a round knob that unscrews ? I use to have a v shaped piece of metal that would bolt onto the knob, then it could be secured upside down.

 

[LuptonM]

I've used a hand held belt sander to aid flattening the back of old chisels if the diamond stone looks like it will take forever. I try to use it to hollow out the middle where the bump is. once I've achieved a slight hollow or it flat enough to go back to the diamond stone then I stop. I don't like doing it this way because the belt sander has a lot of force pulling the tool in one direction and will mess up narrow blades. It never gets things flat due to the inbuilt inaccuracies but flat enough to go to a corse diamond stone.

Without some sort of tool rest I think it may be hard to achieve what you want due to the force of the belt sander. You would want to clamp the belt sander vertically and have a good sturdy tool chest either shop made or bought (I.e emulate a sorby pro-edge). Second hand bench grinders are pretty cheap and new white wheels not that expensive anyway.

 

[John Brown]

My belt sander is the Makita 9404(or an older equivalent). I can clamp the handle in the vice and have the belt at around 45 degrees, and it has a locking on switch. Having taken on board the advice given here, I have the confidence to reshape the iron of my Rolson No 4 copy for scrub plane use. It was never going to be much good as a precision smoother, and I have a Stanley(that some kind forum member sold me a few years back). I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't trying to do something foolhardy or impossible. I do have some diamond plates and plate glass with lapping film for the more delicate parts of the procedure. As I understand it, I shouldn't need to worry too much about flattening the back of the iron.
Thanks again for all the responses.

 

[John Brown]

Well, I totally screwed up the primary bevel angle the first time round, so went back to the belt sander and had another go. My radius isn't as pretty as it was, but at least the plane does "scrub" now. I probably need to hone a bit more.

 

[Jacob]

Box shaped Bosch belt sanders are really handy for this. You just sit it on the bench upside down, no need to fix anything, though it comes with various brackets and a tool rest (which I've never used).
It's my first choice for any drastic blade reshaping. 60 grit, runs cooler than a wheel but it's still possible to overheat. Just freehand at the usual approx 25º
The only real problem is the sparks - can set fire to sawdust lodged in corners so you need to keep it very clean.
Re "I shouldn't need to worry too much about flattening the back of the iron." - no plane irons or chisels need flattening it's just one of the quirky crackpot modern fashions and a big waste of time, as long as the cap iron (if there is one) fits well. Though a bit of polish adjacent the cutting edge is good for reducing friction

PS there's good reason for grinding a slightly convex bevel - it shifts the contact point over the bevel and avoids overheating at the edge. Just freehand - very little skill required.
PPS and there's good reason for ignoring the mantra about 'primary, secondary' bevels - it's easier to freehand at about 25º (on wheel, belt, stone etc) and then hone at a slightly steeper angle without being too fussy about it. If you actually use it as a scrub plane you are going to have to freehand hone it very frequently and too much modern sharpening fiddling would seriously hold up the job!

 

[woodbrains]

Box shaped Bosch belt sanders are really handy for this. You just sit it on the bench upside down, no need to fix anything, though it comes with various brackets and a tool rest (which I've never used).
It's my first choice for any drastic blade reshaping. 60 grit, runs cooler than a wheel but it's still possible to overheat. Just freehand at the usual approx 25º
The only real problem is the sparks - can set fire to sawdust lodged in corners so you need to keep it very clean.
Re "I shouldn't need to worry too much about flattening the back of the iron." - no plane irons or chisels need flattening it's just one of the quirky crackpot modern fashions and a big waste of time, as long as the cap iron (if there is one) fits well. Though a bit of polish adjacent the cutting edge is good for reducing friction

PS there's good reason for grinding a slightly convex bevel - it shifts the contact point over the bevel and avoids overheating at the edge. Just freehand - very little skill required.
PPS and there's good reason for ignoring the mantra about 'primary, secondary' bevels - it's easier to freehand at about 25º (on wheel, belt, stone etc) and then hone at a slightly steeper angle without being too fussy about it. If you actually use it as a scrub plane you are going to have to freehand hone it very frequently and too much modern sharpening fiddling would seriously hold up the job!

Hello,

So why not use your Sorby Pro Edge? Making stuff up again, so you have something to say? We all know, ad nauseum, your feelings on sharpening. FFS tell us something useful, or I'll forget I said I missed you when you were banned! Start a thread on some joinery technique we might not know, or some variation therof, we like that stuff, but I sharpen how I like and it is not how you do it, but it works, so I'll not change. Nor will any one else who has their own variation, because they do what they do for good reason. It might not be yours, but works. And consider that I remember when you didn't really know what a scrub plane was for, until you decided to change your mind (correctly) and then tell everyone how to sharpen and use them! C'mon you've a lot to say that is useful (maybe you've already said it all) but re iterating this old nonsense is tedious and belittles you.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

....
So why not use your Sorby Pro Edge? .....

For quick rough grinding of plane blades the Bosch is wider, faster and easier. But yes could use the Pro-edge.
Well spotted "woodbrains". :lol:

You sound a little tetchy, is everything all right? Feel free to sharpen how you like - don't take any notice of anything I say if it worries you.

Start a thread on some joinery technique we might not know, or some variation therof,

Well I did start advising somebody on some very basic practical woodworker's essential drawing skills but they all got really angry and I was banned! Can't win!

 

[woodbrains]

....
So why not use your Sorby Pro Edge? .....

For quick rough grinding of plane blades the Bosch is wider, faster and easier. But yes could use the Pro-edge.
Well spotted "woodbrains". :lol:

You sound a little tetchy, is everything all right? Feel free to sharpen how you like - don't take any notice of anything I say if it worries you.

Start a thread on some joinery technique we might not know, or some variation therof,

Well I did start advising somebody on some very basic practical woodworker's essential drawing skills but they all got really angry and I was banned! Can't win!

Hello,

I'm fine, thanks for asking.

You seem to miss the point of a forum, though. I want to take notice of what you say. You have skill and knowledge that I want to hear about. I'll decide whether it is something I can incorporate into my methodology, and others will do similarly. Let us hear that. Telling people they sharpen wrong, when they are actually getting fine results, is stupid. You know you are being contentious and you know you often bate people for effect. I get it, you have fun. But be a teacher, not a dictator. You have to see it from other perspectives and modify your responses accordingly. I have learned things from you and I know you have from me, though I doubt you'll ever admit that. So in the interest of spreading information, continue giving your opinions on how you do things. But there are other ways that work equally well and if you know that is the case, (you should know) don't immediately disparage them. It doesn't make your stance more valid.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.....ves and modify your responses accordingly. I have learned things from you and I know you have from me, though I doubt you'll ever admit that. So in the interest of spreading information, continue giving your opinions on how you do things. But there are other ways that work equally well .....

We will never find these other ways if we don't talk about them, try them out, often be sceptical and so on.
But you can still do what you like!
I may be repetitive but that's because the same topics keep coming up.
I do actually think it is useful to remind people that there is another view. Like the new fashion for 'flattening', there must have been thousands of frustrating hours wasted on it, and even tools spoiled, since it caught on. You don't have to do it!

 

[nabs]

although I understand that flattening of e.g the face of a plane iron was not done by tradesman of old, and that it is not necessary to get a sharp edge, it does not follow that it is a waste of time, at least if you are using second-hand irons.

As a beginner what I have I found is that creating a reasonably flat face meant there was one less thing to go wrong when trying to get things sharp, since you can easily and reliably remove the bur. Now I have got the knack of sharpening I too have found you can skip the step in many cases, but I still tend to do it anyway since I very much enjoy the smug sense of self-satisfaction I get when finished.

I agree it does not do to obsess about it though!

 

[John Brown]

My scrub plane is a fairly imprecise thing. That was why I thought I needn't bother with flattening.

@Woodbrains, if you want to wind Jacob up, do it in your own thread. i was quite happy getting advice in this one, everyone was being friendly and helpful, and now you've turned it sour.