woodbloke
Established Member
I've got one of the older pattern Record Holdfasts in my bench and use it all the time. I wished when I built my bench though, that I'd put in another collar for it at the other end - Rob
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
Hi guys, pardon the delay and thanks for the inputs but i was away yesterday.
To your question OPJ - and pardon the length. I'm no expert, and up to this have been using a bench i built years ago without thinking very much about it from approx 4 X 12 roofing timbers over DIY welded steel brackets screwed to the floor and wall, then approximately smoothed and varnished. With one metal woodworking face vice at the wrong end.
No dog holes, and the vice was really only useful for short pieces centered between the jaws. It didn't grip well, stuff moved far too easily if you used e.g. a chisel.
It introduced me fairly explicitly to the frustrations of not having a bench that held a workpiece very effectively - compounded by the fact that i only had a small number of sliding F and G clamps. Although to be fair i never seriously set out to maximise its usefulness by drilling dog holes, making bench hooks, relocating the vice and the like.
I got around it by using hand tools very little - doing most of my work on my Robland combination. Trouble is I've meanwhile invested quite heavily in hand tools and other equipment.
The workbench project came about by degrees, as did the replacement of the Robland with Hammer machines. Plan A was to upgrade the current item by facing the top with a maple worktop, but before too long it started to become clear that i was trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and that for the amount of work involved i'd probably be better to start with a blank sheet.
My lack of experience with a proper workbench, and with hand tools led me to researching workbench designs - and that quickly led to the frustrations mentioned above.
Dogs and vice placement seemed fairly self explanatory once thought about, but i could make little headway on how the various forms of wooden end and face vices are used (other than the basic dog function of the end variety), how they compare to metal vices, on how a larger item like a frame was to be held on a single row of dog holes, how stuff like hold downs are chosen and used, pros and cons of the various solutions etc.
Chris Schwarz's book is very specific and explict on these and lots of other issues - he dissects the problem by rating how well and why `the various designs do on holding various (especially stock sizes of pieces like cabinet doors, timber strip etc) for access to the faces, ends and edges. It gets quite detailed, but at least the facts are there if you are prepared to do the work to plug in your needs. Not only that but he seems to have built and used many benches over the years, and is consequently speaking from practical experience.
I guess the bottom line is that while you can build somebody else's design on trust and hope for the best, that if you want to get it right that you really do need to treat it as a design engineering project. i.e. decide precisely what functions you need, prioritise them and then figure out how best to satisfy the resulting list of requirements.
Good information gets even more important if at the same time you are not that experienced, and as a result are in parallel trying to gain an understanding of the tasks/functions relevant to your situation - both now and in the future.
You're well ahead on experience John, but sounds like we're on the same road. I'll be drawing mine up over Christmas so i can order the timber.
I've just ordered two of this US made modern steel version of the old style crooked holdfasts on the strong recommendation of the book Jim: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merc ... y_Code=CGT Those screw down ones you have loo promising - i'd been eyeing up the Veritas screwed version, but they are quite expensive and figured that these were worth a tilt at $17 each - especially since they all use 3/4 in dog holes ...
ian
To your question OPJ - and pardon the length. I'm no expert, and up to this have been using a bench i built years ago without thinking very much about it from approx 4 X 12 roofing timbers over DIY welded steel brackets screwed to the floor and wall, then approximately smoothed and varnished. With one metal woodworking face vice at the wrong end.
No dog holes, and the vice was really only useful for short pieces centered between the jaws. It didn't grip well, stuff moved far too easily if you used e.g. a chisel.
It introduced me fairly explicitly to the frustrations of not having a bench that held a workpiece very effectively - compounded by the fact that i only had a small number of sliding F and G clamps. Although to be fair i never seriously set out to maximise its usefulness by drilling dog holes, making bench hooks, relocating the vice and the like.
I got around it by using hand tools very little - doing most of my work on my Robland combination. Trouble is I've meanwhile invested quite heavily in hand tools and other equipment.
The workbench project came about by degrees, as did the replacement of the Robland with Hammer machines. Plan A was to upgrade the current item by facing the top with a maple worktop, but before too long it started to become clear that i was trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and that for the amount of work involved i'd probably be better to start with a blank sheet.
My lack of experience with a proper workbench, and with hand tools led me to researching workbench designs - and that quickly led to the frustrations mentioned above.
Dogs and vice placement seemed fairly self explanatory once thought about, but i could make little headway on how the various forms of wooden end and face vices are used (other than the basic dog function of the end variety), how they compare to metal vices, on how a larger item like a frame was to be held on a single row of dog holes, how stuff like hold downs are chosen and used, pros and cons of the various solutions etc.
Chris Schwarz's book is very specific and explict on these and lots of other issues - he dissects the problem by rating how well and why `the various designs do on holding various (especially stock sizes of pieces like cabinet doors, timber strip etc) for access to the faces, ends and edges. It gets quite detailed, but at least the facts are there if you are prepared to do the work to plug in your needs. Not only that but he seems to have built and used many benches over the years, and is consequently speaking from practical experience.
I guess the bottom line is that while you can build somebody else's design on trust and hope for the best, that if you want to get it right that you really do need to treat it as a design engineering project. i.e. decide precisely what functions you need, prioritise them and then figure out how best to satisfy the resulting list of requirements.
Good information gets even more important if at the same time you are not that experienced, and as a result are in parallel trying to gain an understanding of the tasks/functions relevant to your situation - both now and in the future.
You're well ahead on experience John, but sounds like we're on the same road. I'll be drawing mine up over Christmas so i can order the timber.
I've just ordered two of this US made modern steel version of the old style crooked holdfasts on the strong recommendation of the book Jim: http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merc ... y_Code=CGT Those screw down ones you have loo promising - i'd been eyeing up the Veritas screwed version, but they are quite expensive and figured that these were worth a tilt at $17 each - especially since they all use 3/4 in dog holes ...
ian
jimi43
Established Member
Yes...I too looked at the Veritas ones and they look quite "cute"....
I was lucky in that the ones I got were in need of restoration and were therefore quite cheap....plus they were listed wrong and therefore did not rise on the horizon for most bidders. These are built like brick outhouses and are really easy to use...I was pleasantly surprised myself!
My moving dog on vise has also proven invaluable...
Traditionally the fixed dogs are on the edge but I mostly work on clamping guitar jigs and for me I needed a series of holes down the centre of the bench.
Also MOST of my work is of a more delicate nature so the dimensions of my bench are scaled down accordingly...although the weight of the solid oak is more than enough for planing with a No.7 without movement.
I need to install a "go bar" which will be removeable and the edges need to be free for that too....
Good luck with your research mate....
Jim
dannykaye
Established Member
Nice Christmas! Now that the dust is settling here's the way the thoughts are going on the bench project.
Weight, solidity and stiffness suggest a variant on Christopher Schwarz's Roubo design. But with modern vices, and it'd be nice to use hard maple on grounds that while expensive not only is it clean and stiff, it's very highly ding resistant. (not for nothing was it favoured for flooring)
Basic features:
- Solid top, 4 in thick, laminated from boards on edge, bare - no skirts to obstruct clamping.
- Legs flush with both side faces to support vertical clamping.
- 8ft X 2ft top to hold/support up to 8ft lengths. (using the dog holes in the moving jaw of the end vice increases this by about another 10in)
- No tool tray.
- Heavy 5 X 5 in legs tenoned into top - with bolted and mortised stretchers all round at very bottom to maximise space for deadman, and cross wise only at top between legs. (Schwarz suggests forming tenons during lamination of the legs)
- Top anchored by tenon at front edge, but left free to slide at rear by loose tenon. (so that movement of the top does not spread the legs and mess up the 90 deg/flush location of the front legs to the top)
- Capable of unbolting into separate top, two double bar "H" frames (leg sets) and two loose end to end stretchers should transport ever be required.
- Full width end stop - board bolted to LH end, position adjustable vertically and horizontally.
- Veritas twin screw vice with wooden jaws at LH end of front face to enable clamping of edge up pieces as well as tapers, and vertical clamping of drawer sides etc.
- Veritas large front vice with wooden jaws mounted at RH end. (not quick release so can be used for spreading too)
- Bench top and moving vice jaws (3 holes in each) drilled with a grid of 3/4 in holes for dogs etc - three rows down the length aligned with holes in vice jaws. (not too sure about trying to do the job with a single row)
- Fixed jaw of twin vice centred over and inset to be flush with leg and front edge of top.
- Fixed jaw of end vice full width 24 in.
- Sliding deadman running in groove routed in underneath of front face of top, modified to go almost right to floor to enable vertical clamping of e.g 34in door or similar.
So far as i can tell this layout covers most of the bases but as ever maybe you guys know better.
Not so sure about the detail of work holding methods. I've ordered a couple of hold downs (post above) to try. The 3/4 in dog holes at least leave lots of options.
I bought the vices some time ago before getting this far, but the signs are that fortunately they seem to have been a pretty decent choice.
No plans for cabinets or storage underneath, would prefer to keep the space clear.
Drawing board next to find out if it can actually work, and more to the point if i can afford around 9 cuft of maple!
It'd be nice to get it right, to not to have to do this again in a few years...
ian
PS Those are very arty looking hold downs Danny.
Weight, solidity and stiffness suggest a variant on Christopher Schwarz's Roubo design. But with modern vices, and it'd be nice to use hard maple on grounds that while expensive not only is it clean and stiff, it's very highly ding resistant. (not for nothing was it favoured for flooring)
Basic features:
- Solid top, 4 in thick, laminated from boards on edge, bare - no skirts to obstruct clamping.
- Legs flush with both side faces to support vertical clamping.
- 8ft X 2ft top to hold/support up to 8ft lengths. (using the dog holes in the moving jaw of the end vice increases this by about another 10in)
- No tool tray.
- Heavy 5 X 5 in legs tenoned into top - with bolted and mortised stretchers all round at very bottom to maximise space for deadman, and cross wise only at top between legs. (Schwarz suggests forming tenons during lamination of the legs)
- Top anchored by tenon at front edge, but left free to slide at rear by loose tenon. (so that movement of the top does not spread the legs and mess up the 90 deg/flush location of the front legs to the top)
- Capable of unbolting into separate top, two double bar "H" frames (leg sets) and two loose end to end stretchers should transport ever be required.
- Full width end stop - board bolted to LH end, position adjustable vertically and horizontally.
- Veritas twin screw vice with wooden jaws at LH end of front face to enable clamping of edge up pieces as well as tapers, and vertical clamping of drawer sides etc.
- Veritas large front vice with wooden jaws mounted at RH end. (not quick release so can be used for spreading too)
- Bench top and moving vice jaws (3 holes in each) drilled with a grid of 3/4 in holes for dogs etc - three rows down the length aligned with holes in vice jaws. (not too sure about trying to do the job with a single row)
- Fixed jaw of twin vice centred over and inset to be flush with leg and front edge of top.
- Fixed jaw of end vice full width 24 in.
- Sliding deadman running in groove routed in underneath of front face of top, modified to go almost right to floor to enable vertical clamping of e.g 34in door or similar.
So far as i can tell this layout covers most of the bases but as ever maybe you guys know better.
Not so sure about the detail of work holding methods. I've ordered a couple of hold downs (post above) to try. The 3/4 in dog holes at least leave lots of options.
I bought the vices some time ago before getting this far, but the signs are that fortunately they seem to have been a pretty decent choice.
No plans for cabinets or storage underneath, would prefer to keep the space clear.
Drawing board next to find out if it can actually work, and more to the point if i can afford around 9 cuft of maple!
It'd be nice to get it right, to not to have to do this again in a few years...
ian
PS Those are very arty looking hold downs Danny.
Aled Dafis
Established Member
I've also been absorbing Chris' book of late, what a fascinating read!
My conclusion (well sort of a theoretical WIP as I have a perfectly adequate bench) is that I'd go for a massive Roubo type construction just as Ian as suggested above.
As far as the vices go, I'd be tempted to go for a leg vice, or even an angled leg vice as on Chris' "English bench" on the front and a wagon vice in the tail vice position. The real benefit of the angled vice is that you can clamp long boards effectively for say dovetailing etc. the construction of the bench does however become a little more complicated.
I've been really impressed by the Benchcrafted "Glide" vice, but I fear that they're probably out of my price range.
Cheers
Aled
My conclusion (well sort of a theoretical WIP as I have a perfectly adequate bench) is that I'd go for a massive Roubo type construction just as Ian as suggested above.
As far as the vices go, I'd be tempted to go for a leg vice, or even an angled leg vice as on Chris' "English bench" on the front and a wagon vice in the tail vice position. The real benefit of the angled vice is that you can clamp long boards effectively for say dovetailing etc. the construction of the bench does however become a little more complicated.
I've been really impressed by the Benchcrafted "Glide" vice, but I fear that they're probably out of my price range.
Cheers
Aled
A
Anonymous
Guest
I have to say that I did make a wooden version first, but for thin stock, the ali is so much more precise and holds it much better. Not sure that a wooden one would work quite as well or have the advantage of being small yet very rigid
no problems with the blades hitting it as I can set it very finely [-o<
I do find i use it all the time now!
no problems with the blades hitting it as I can set it very finely [-o<
I do find i use it all the time now!
jimi43
Established Member
Tony":3ps1ouzr said:
The proof of the pudding in my opinion Tony and if you use it all the time and it is not a danger to tools then I am sold on the idea wholeheartedly.
NOW...where WAS that ali stock I had...mmm
Jim
