Grinding a square edge on Plane Irons?

[Mike-W]

I have used a Tormek for many years and i have always had a problem getting a square edge on my Chisels and Plane Irons.

i regularly use the Truing and Dressing Tool (TT-50) and replaced the original square edge jig with the 'new' Square Edge Jig (SE-76) some years ago, although this new jig references off the flat back face rather than the beveled front face of chisels so in theory at least using either jig for Plane Irons should not make any difference to grinding contact with the stone.

My method of sharpening is to grind on the Tormek then hone a secondary bevel using either flat water stones or the scary sharp process, transferring Irons from the Tormek Jig to a different jig (curently a Richard Kell #1 or #2 ) highlights the problem as the second bevel can easily be tapered across the width of the Iron, besides while an Iron in a Bedrock plane can be adjusted from side to side there is very little adjustment with Bevel Up planes such as the Lie-Nielsen 164.

My solution although a bit 'hit and miss' is to check the squareness of the cutting edge before starting, mark the top of the iron with a dot at the 'high' end then turning over the Iron blacken the face to be ground with felt tip marker. Put the Iron into the jig, set with the correct projection and set against the side stop in the jig, then slide the jig onto the bar above the stone and without the stone running gently rub the face to be ground on the stone, remove the iron & Jig and skew the iron slightly in the Jig to try and adjust for any likely 'out of square' grinding, as i said this is a bit hit and miss although i can get it closer to square than previously.

So my question is this : do any users of Tormek (or other similar water cooled sharpening systems) have a problem grinding a square edge across your plane irons?

BW
Mike

 

[RogerP]

On the infrequent occasions when I need to square up a plane iron or chisel blade I just do it freehand against a vertically running bench sander then put a bevel on, again freehand, finally hone on an oil stone. Doesn't take very long.

 

[Jacob]

Rarely necessary but I used to do a square edge on a bench grindstone by eye, checking as I go with a square. Now ditto with Sorby Proedge. No marking or jigs needed - this is the very simplest of simple sharpening operations.

If you find it a problem with a Tormek and all that kit then just stop using it. A lot of this sort of kit promises so much but simply doesn't deliver.
Whatever you do don't buy a Kell mk 3, I guarantee it'll be even more useless than the 1 and 2! These things are just Steampunk fashion accessories - not for real use.

PS having squared (and/or cambered) the edge I'd then grind a 25 ish bevel on the Pro edge then hone by hand on an oil stone. Same as Roger (and a lot of people)

 

[blackrodd]

I was always taught to square the Plane iron or chisel first then bevel.

Can I ask, How can you get a plane iron out of square in the first place? This must mean whatever system you are using
to grind, sharpen, or hone is not set right.
You don't have to have a "square" cutting edge to the plane iron as long as it is straight, meaning you can gently
straighten it over a period of time.
Regards Rodders

 

[bugbear]

I have used a Tormek for many years and i have always had a problem getting a square edge on my Chisels and Plane Irons.
...

My method of sharpening is to grind on the Tormek then hone a secondary bevel using either flat water stones or the scary sharp process, transferring Irons from the Tormek Jig to a different jig (curently a Richard Kell #1 or #2 ) highlights the problem as the second bevel can easily be tapered across the width of the Iron, besides while an Iron in a Bedrock plane can be adjusted from side to side there is very little adjustment with Bevel Up planes such as the Lie-Nielsen 164.

If you're using a secondary bevel via the Kell, I wouldn't worry too much about the accuracy of grinding the primary; it's just waste removal.

I also wouldn't take the primary all the way to the edge in any case - it wastes precious tool steel.

It would take pretty high grinding accuracy to get a straight line between the primary and secondary bevel, since they're only 5 degrees different - the slightest difference in squareness will be massively magnified.

(same as trying to get the arrises on a low angle raised panel so come out just right)

BugBear

 

[RogerP]

... and here's the way to grind and hone the curved edge of a fore plane’s iron. Same technique is used for a straight iron. No jiggery-pokery required.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... fore-plane

 

[Jacob]

...
Can I ask, How can you get a plane iron out of square in the first place? ....

For me this would be either cambering a straight edge, or removing damage, etc. Or more often remedying lax sharpening on something like a shoulder plane where it has to be reasonably square

 

[Zeddedhed]

I was always taught to square the Plane iron or chisel first then bevel.

Can I ask, How can you get a plane iron out of square in the first place? This must mean whatever system you are using
to grind, sharpen, or hone is not set right.
You don't have to have a "square" cutting edge to the plane iron as long as it is straight, meaning you can gently
straighten it over a period of time.
Regards Rodders

I've had this problem before with my Tormek and believe me it's not hard to get them out of square.
I believe the issue is that the tool rest doesn't always seat properly. One of the stems is threaded, the other is plain and on my machine I can push it all the way down, tighten up the thread and then still lift the other stem (or drop it). Therefore there is no positive definitive stop which would present your jig and blade square on to the wheel.

The solution is to check it as the OP describes and then vary the pressure across the jig and blade until it's grinding square.

Still, I think it's a bit **** that they couldn't design it right in the first place.

 

[blackrodd]

... and here's the way to grind and hone the curved edge of a fore plane’s iron. Same technique is used for a straight iron. No jiggery-pokery required.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... fore-plane

Looking at the grinding article you posted, the tool rest which is also a guard is way, way, too far away from the wheel, should be 3-4mm away from the grinding wheel to prevent any snatch or even getting jammed with the object being shaped or sharpened.
Regards Rodders

 

[Mike-W]

Rodders: Can I ask, How can you get a plane iron out of square in the first place? This must mean whatever system you are using
to grind, sharpen, or hone is not set right.


That is my point Rodders - at the risk of being accused of "a poor workman always blames his tools" I don't think the Tormek is accurate enough to consistently deliver a square edge. BTW I have just spent the morning squaring up a set of chisels that were supplied from the factory ground out of square.

Jacob: I’m not planning on buying a Mk3 Kell Jig but I do have the Mk1 & 2 and it works well for me particularly with very narrow chisels, I guess I could sharpen freehand but I prefer working with a jig.

Thanks guys for your replies particularly Zeddedhead, as I said I have been battling with this problem for years I have long suspected the problem is with the tool rest.

 

[John15]

I grind primary bevels on a course diamond stone. I have tried it on a grinder but made a hash of it. The diamond stone obviously takes longer but I get a good result.

John

 

[blackrodd]

That is my point Rodders - at the risk of being accused of "a poor workman always blames his tools" I don't think the Tormek is accurate enough to consistently deliver a square edge. BTW I have just spent the morning squaring up a set of chisels that were supplied from the factory ground out of square.

I'v just Googled both the tormek 4, and 7, you didn't mention which you had.
Bearing in mind what you and zeddhead have said it looks as if another bracket, down to the bed of some sort is needed to stop the "flexing" you appear to be experiencing.
Can you get someone to make up a base plate and support on the R H Side?
This, unfortunately is just what the freehanders are saying, It's a lot of money spent, and seen not to be working, and I have to agree.
Can I suggest you at least try some freehand, before the next session? Just practice getting a straight and even line each time, you'll lose the signs of the effort anyway.
Regards Rodders

 

[Mike-W]

That is my point Rodders - at the risk of being accused of "a poor workman always blames his tools" I don't think the Tormek is accurate enough to consistently deliver a square edge. BTW I have just spent the morning squaring up a set of chisels that were supplied from the factory ground out of square.

I'v just Googled both the tormek 4, and 7, you didn't mention which you had.
Bearing in mind what you and zeddhead have said it looks as if another bracket, down to the bed of some sort is needed to stop the "flexing" you appear to be experiencing.
Can you get someone to make up a base plate and support on the R H Side?
This, unfortunately is just what the freehanders are saying, It's a lot of money spent, and seen not to be working, and I have to agree.
Can I suggest you at least try some freehand, before the next session? Just practice getting a straight and even line each time, you'll lose the signs of the effort anyway.
Regards Rodders

I have the Supergrind 2000 which as far as i can see is similar to the T-7 - and i agree there is no way knowing what i know now that i would spend over £500 on such a system these days. I like the concept of water cooled grinding but the square edge jig is not doing its job. When i next need to grind (rather than hone) i'll give the free hand technique a blast.
BW
Mike

 

[Jacob]

This thread typifies the sheer mind-bending unreality of modern sharpening fashions:

Grinding a square edge on a piece of steel, square enough for woodworking purposes, must be one of easiest tasks you will encounter in woodwork. Any fool can do it. It might take a few goes at first to do it perfectly but it shouldn't be beyond any prat over the age of say 12.
Yet people are paying £100s for all these bits of kit! But, and it's a big BUT - they don't bloody work! :roll:
So the myth is re-enforced that these things are difficult - leading to the next step - buying even more bits of useless kit! :lol:

It's not your fault MikeW I blame the media, chat groups and all those dodgy "experts".

PS just though I'd add: MikeW you aren't trying to do two things at once; grinding a square and a bevel? Much easier to grind the edge square with the tool at 90º ish to the grinder first, and then to grind the bevel.

...... BTW I have just spent the morning squaring up a set of chisels that were supplied from the factory ground out of square.
.......

I wouldn't bother doing this unless they are seriously skewed which seems very unlikely. Being slightly off square isn't going to affect their performance and you correct it gradually (if you really want to!) with subsequent sharpenings

 

[Zeddedhed]

Mike, I just looked this issue up on the Tormek user site and found a link to this document which may help you.
http://www.sharptoolsusa.com/squareedgeweb.pdf#search="grinding%20square%20edges"

I'm going to dig out an old iron now and have a go and see if I can deliberately grind it out of square and then fix it using the techniques they describe in the document.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[blackrodd]

TBH, If I was a beginner, I'd be looking to buy a set of these Aldi chisels and just practice on a cheap, but ready made
bevel and just use the original jig that mother nature provided.
Set the rest, and lay carefully on the rotating wheel for a few seconds, check and feel the correct angle,
As Jacob and others say the angle doesn't have to be EXACTLY spot on for a sharp and useful tool!
After a while it becomes second nature.
Regards Rodders

 

[Mike-W]

Mike, I just looked this issue up on the Tormek user site and found a link to this document which may help you.
http://www.sharptoolsusa.com/squareedgeweb.pdf#search="grinding%20square%20edges"

I'm going to dig out an old iron now and have a go and see if I can deliberately grind it out of square and then fix it using the techniques they describe in the document.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for that Zeddedhed, thats an interesting document although i do make a point of checking the saddle that clamps the bottom of the iron to the main body of the square edge jig is parallel between the two clamp screws (by sight), one of Brimac demonstrators pointed out that i needed to check this some years ago.
I'll be pleased to hear if this works for you.

BW
Mike

 

[Zeddedhed]

Just finished with an old iron and it would seem that a quarter turn can make a significant difference.

I tend to agree with Jacob and Rodders and the other freehanders that going 'sans jig' is probably best in the long run. I busted my right wrist quite badly several years ago and although all is healed up etc I find jigs do make the process easier - taking a nick out on a coarse stone can make my wrist seriously painful. Maybe I need to develop an ice-cooled freehand system!!

 

[bugbear]

taking a nick out on a coarse stone can make my wrist seriously painful.

For rough grinding (without power) I find extension handles make the process easier, more comfortable, and more accurate.

And if you're just wasting away excess metal, no need for accuracy, so no need for a jig (this is also true for grinding primaries - any angle less than the secondary is fine)

My most frequently used is a simple hand vice.

http://www.woodworkinfo.site88.net/tour.html#hand_vise

BugBear

 

[lurker]

... and here's the way to grind and hone the curved edge of a fore plane’s iron. Same technique is used for a straight iron. No jiggery-pokery required.
http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodw ... fore-plane

Looking at the grinding article you posted, the tool rest which is also a guard is way, way, too far away from the wheel, should be 3-4mm away from the grinding wheel to prevent any snatch or even getting jammed with the object being shaped or sharpened.
Regards Rodders

I agree! This is the problem with all this easily available material particularly from a cross the pond. It's all too easy to assume dangerous practices are acceptable if you have no proper training.
Like rodder says that's asking for trouble
I can envision that causing a wheel shatter, people have lost their sight when that happens
Swartz should know better