Good money

[HawkEye]

Is it possible to make good money as a joiner or cabinet maker if you work for someone else?

If someone you know considered doing joinery or cabinet making for a living what advice would you give them?

 

[Doug B]

Yes if your sub-contracting to a firm.

Never met a joinery firm who pays their employees top dollar.

 

[HawkEye]

I like woodworking but I don't see any future for myself in the industry. I've had a few painful experiences in joiner's workshops and on-site, and it seems that the rate of pay seems to be very poor. I don't see myself doing anything unless its in construction and although I'm back at college now due to not being able to find a job (even with a qualification), I feel like all studying and no earning is bad for me, although I get by due to being supported by my mum.

I get really miserable at times because I've never had any friends or family who can help me in construction, and so far I've been treated really poorly by employers.

I would pack in this college course I'm doing now and return to doing carpentry on or off site if I knew there was some future in it... and that maybe I would get to a stage where I could start my own small business... but I never get anywhere with this. I never get offered jobs and any jobs that are half decent seem to get snapped by friends and family of the employer... its really a very sad situation.

If anyone ever got to a stage like this would they carry on and persue their interest or pack it in completely and start doing any job that comes up from the jobcentre, or just sit around on benefits??...

 

[OPJ]

Don't be so hard on yourself. We're stuck in the middle of this Recession at the minute and the reality is that it's unlikely to end anytime soon. Not only is it a 'risky' time to start a new business but many firms (large and small) are struggling and won't be looking to take any one on.

It's not your fault that you are in this situation. The hard truth is, it's not going to be easy finding work in this industry right now, even on a part-time basis.

My advice to you is to stick with your course and at least see it through to the end of this year (course-time that is; end of June). Try to get a part-time job where you can earn some money around your course - we all need money! :wink: You could then build up your tool kit and arsenal at home, maybe do a few jobs for friends, families and locals on the side. The money won't be great but it will be better for your future prospects in whatever you want to do - the last thing a future employer to see is a large gap of unemployment on your CV. It's not good for the mind, body or soul (DAMHIKT).

If the college class your course is 'full-time' then you probably won't be entitled to any benefits anyway, regardless of the days and hours you are otherwise free to work (it sucks, I know!).

Times are hard, we've just got to do what we can do get through this. It's not easy but, I wish you the very best in whatever you decide to do!

 

[rileytoolworks]

Don't give up on it. I work for a top end kitchen manufacturer (sorry- bespoke furniture makers!) and I get paid ever so slightly more than I could get working for Lidl. It's **** money for the product we're turning out (and the service we (the makers and fitters) provide), but I'm working towards going self employed. I've looked around and this seems to be about the going rate.

I am self taught (no qualification), and I've always thought this has worked against me to some extent, even though I am the equal of any I work with.
So I would advise that you carry on with the college. If you can't find woody related work to take the pressure off your Mum, I would suggest taking what you can, in this climate, but keep your eyes peeled for opportunities.
All the best mate. Adam.

 

[rileytoolworks]

My post crossed OPJ's. I was trying to say 'wot he said'. He put it much more concisely and eloquently than I though...

Adam.

 

[9fingers]

As others have said hang on in there. Now is not the time to be setting out on your own.
Yes better money is earned by sub contracting than being employed but that is because subbies are taking on a chunk of the risk otherwise carried by the main contractor/employer.

Do all you can to prepare yourself for when the time is right to branch out as sub-contractor. Get in the habit of estimating your work -even if it just the number of hours it should take you and how long it ends up taking and what the poo traps were that took the extra time. Keep a note book and if your employer does not mind, take some photos of the jobs as well.

In that way hopefully you will learn what features of a job cost the time or in the jargon are 'cost drivers'.
Even if you can't do it on the jobs you are working on, make notes of how the design could have been changed to remove/reduce these cost drivers. In this way you can try to advise your future clients to opt for a design that is a lower cost to you. Don't reduce your price but think of it as extra profit or something in your back pocket to help out when you do get a job that goes wrong and costs you more to do than you expected.

Good Luck

Bob

 

[BradNaylor]

Is it possible to make good money as a joiner or cabinet maker if you work for someone else?

It is possible but appears to be rare.

My stepson worked for me for 3 or 4 years and then got a job with a big local firm of cabinetmakers who do custom work for footballers in Cheshire mansions. He is now 30, has recently been made a foreman, and is on about £30k per year. That is about the limit to what one could earn working for a company.

As Riley suggests, employment is good training for the day you go self-employed - if that is what you want to do.

Many self-employed cabinetmakers struggle to make a good living too, though.

 

[HawkEye]

Thanks guys.

As already mentioned my course is classed as full time (3 days a week), and I don't think I can recieve benefits because its exactly 16 hours a week, the exact number of hours necessary to stop me from receiving any money whatsoever...

I have a £3000 grant that employers can use to pay me from the Construction training board... but even with the grant nobody wants to take me on. This makes me think its more to do with me and how I am comming accross. Almost all the people I have come accross, the foreman, the workshop managers, have all been horrible, horrible people. The type of people that you are afraid to ask questions in case they deem you as useless/thick, and tell you not to come back on Monday...

Even non-construction related jobs,.. say in a Homebase or some God awful place like that will be hard to find due to me only having the two days and two weekends spare....

And then there's managing to find a job with this qualification that I'm doing at college that ends in 2011....I may possibly be able to get a job that involves design and using CAD software...(office job) , but that's a long way away... At the moment though I seem to have stranded myself in a very slow moving nightmare.

 

[GrahamH]

I used to be in the same boat, three years at the London College of Furniture, left with good qualifications and struggled to find anything that paid even a c**p wage.

In my opinion, unless you go self employed you'll struggle, there's no money in furniture. A couple of mates one a joiner(doors, stairs etc...) the other a carpenter(on-site) were a bit better off but not by much.

My last couple of jobs were making bespoke kitchens and this paid less than stacking shelves at the local supermarket. Finally got an IT qualification and jumped ship after 18 months I was earning over double what I was being perviously being paid.

I miss the woodwork, though I'm slowly converting the garage in to a workshop - I'm better equipped than some of the smaller companies I've worked for.

best of luck

Graham

 

[big soft moose]

I have a £3000 grant that employers can use to pay me from the Construction training board... but even with the grant nobody wants to take me on. This makes me think its more to do with me and how I am comming accross. Almost all the people I have come accross, the foreman, the workshop managers, have all been horrible, horrible people. The type of people that you are afraid to ask questions in case they deem you as useless/thick, and tell you not to come back on Monday...

Even non-construction related jobs,.. say in a Homebase or some God awful place like that will be hard to find due to me only having the two days and two weekends spare....

At the moment though I seem to have stranded myself in a very slow moving nightmare.

I think perhaps some confidence and assertiveness training might be the order of the day here.

while its possible that some people you meet may be less than pleasant the chances of all of them being so horrible that they'd fire you for asking a question are minimal - chances are that they are more likely busy and stressed so you need to pick your moment and get your head down and graft and make a good impression before asking your questions

if you are projecting a negative attitude in interview then that will explain why you arent being taken on as no one wants to add a negative person to a team for fear of impact on morale and productivity.

that also comes accros in your attitude to homebase etc - yes they arent ideal workplaces for everyone but if you consider them to be god awful places then you will project that in your manner and body language making it much less likely that they'll take you on

when you get your next interview (even for a joe job) try to think positive about the venue , and the good things that will come out of working there - weekend jobs ought not to be that hard to find as that is the time that sheds are at their busiest.

 

[HawkEye]

I used to be in the same boat, three years at the London College of Furniture, left with good qualifications and struggled to find anything that paid even a c**p wage.

In my opinion, unless you go self employed you'll struggle, there's no money in furniture. A couple of mates one a joiner(doors, stairs etc...) the other a carpenter(on-site) were a bit better off but not by much.

My last couple of jobs were making bespoke kitchens and this paid less than stacking shelves at the local supermarket. Finally got an IT qualification and jumped ship after 18 months I was earning over double what I was being perviously being paid.

I miss the woodwork, though I'm slowly converting the garage in to a workshop - I'm better equipped than some of the smaller companies I've worked for.

best of luck

Graham

What was the IT qualification you got? I considered taking the A+ and becoming a bench tech but I couldn't find anyone who was hiring.

 

[HawkEye]

I have a £3000 grant that employers can use to pay me from the Construction training board... but even with the grant nobody wants to take me on. This makes me think its more to do with me and how I am comming accross. Almost all the people I have come accross, the foreman, the workshop managers, have all been horrible, horrible people. The type of people that you are afraid to ask questions in case they deem you as useless/thick, and tell you not to come back on Monday...

Even non-construction related jobs,.. say in a Homebase or some God awful place like that will be hard to find due to me only having the two days and two weekends spare....

At the moment though I seem to have stranded myself in a very slow moving nightmare.

I think perhaps some confidence and assertiveness training might be the order of the day here.

while its possible that some people you meet may be less than pleasant the chances of all of them being so horrible that they'd fire you for asking a question are minimal - chances are that they are more likely busy and stressed so you need to pick your moment and get your head down and graft and make a good impression before asking your questions

if you are projecting a negative attitude in interview then that will explain why you arent being taken on as no one wants to add a negative person to a team for fear of impact on morale and productivity.

that also comes accros in your attitude to homebase etc - yes they arent ideal workplaces for everyone but if you consider them to be god awful places then you will project that in your manner and body language making it much less likely that they'll take you on

when you get your next interview (even for a joe job) try to think positive about the venue , and the good things that will come out of working there - weekend jobs ought not to be that hard to find as that is the time that sheds are at their busiest.

How old are you? What's your story? Ever worked for friends or family? Its a struggle for most people, its obviously not a struggle for you. If you make a good living doing what you are doing then you are incredibly fortunate to have the contacts there to use. Not everyone is this lucky.

 

[OPJ]

Almost all the people I have come across, the foreman, the workshop managers, have all been horrible, horrible people. The type of people that you are afraid to ask questions in case they deem you as useless/thick, and tell you not to come back on Monday...

I agree with Pete's (big soft moose) comments on this.

Generally, that's life - we don't have to like everyone we meet, we just need to get along some times. How many people honestly like the person who pays their wage? You don't need to be best mates, you just have to be able to work together. It's not just employers either, it's people you meet in every day life - I've had a couple of 'unpleasant' experiences buying timber, for example. That's something you'd have to face more often if you went down the self-employed route.

If you do want to try and boost your confidence, I can personally recommend one of Paul McKenna's books for a start - it may not be 'the answer' but, in the last few years, it's helped me to be a lot more self-confident than I used to be (so has woodwork, funnily enough). As Pete says, it's all about how you visualise and perceive these situations - positive thinking and focusing on the good points is the key.

Working in a DIY shed, for example, would have its advantages as you'd be able to use your staff discount to fund your woodwork! :wink:

 

[BMac]

Hi Hawkeye,

You are in a tough spot now but you are doing something about it and that is important. Your college course has meant you don't qualify for benefits but it seems you have 4 days free so there is time available for something else to fill some of that time and a part-time job would seem the obvious answer to give you some money and improve your morale.

About your experiences at work with employers. You mentioned the issue of not wishing to ask questions in case the employer thought you were incapable or useless. In a previous life part of my job was placing students on work experience and the single, most common complaint by employers was "S/He doesn't ask any questions". To the employer that indicated lack of interest in the job or self-skill improvement. Like BSM said, ask questions but pick your time. No time is likely to be good but it's better to slow things a little than lose half a day waiting for an answer.

Just a thought, is there any possibility that you can work for yourself during your off-college time doing DIY type work for friends and family to get the word out that you are available or making projects you could sell? The products don't have to be grand pieces, just stuff people use (a guy here makes bird tables, window boxes etc from his garage).

The guys above have given great advice and I am going to try to follow BSM's advice on attitude. He has given wise counsel and all I would add is a quote from Muhammad Ali who was asked one time in an interview "If you hadn't become the Heavyweight World Champion what else would you have done?" Ali replied "It doesn't matter, if I had been a New York dustman I would have been the best dustman in the world."

Good luck with your quest.

Brendan

 

[Oakbear]

How old are you? What's your story? Ever worked for friends or family? Its a struggle for most people, its obviously not a struggle for you. If you make a good living doing what you are doing then you are incredibly fortunate to have the contacts there to use. Not everyone is this lucky.

There's no need to be rude to a guy who has taken the time to give you good advice out of the goodness of his heart.
His post wasn't about him, and frankly you or i don't know how hard or not his lot has been!
It read as kind and helpful to me, and pretty much spot on.

I understand you are not where you want to be at the moment, but the onus is on you to change it.
It's easy to blame the world, but frankly the world doesn't care a hoot, doesn't owe you anything, and you won't change it by grumbling.

Change what you can, importantly your attitude and response to adversity. It's you making youself miserable at the minute, nobody else....

So why not call the big shops or construction firms about weekend work?
Ask at shops about work experience or further training.
You don''t have anything to lose....


Edit - Oh and unless it's changed since i was on the dole, 16 hours is the max you can work/train and still claim jobseekers, so you might be ok!

 

[alex s]

OP - where in london are you based?
I am a general builder (just me and a lad) and I am up to my eyes in work at the mo ( aint word of mouth great) pm if you want to talk about some part time work.
Alex

 

[jimi43]

I have a couple of things to say that might help.

Firstly, if you are lucky enough to be in education, however hard it may seem....keep at it. My mother has always said "they can't take it away from you"...about any qualification and that has ALWAYS come true for me.

I left school with just one A level MANY years ago...I found a job that would pay to train me and got C&G...then HND...then a degree. I stayed with them for 28 years before being made redundant in the last dip in the economy and tried to strike it out myself in general building and repair work...did quite well until this latest horrific economy.

Even with all my qualifications...I found it impossible to get ANY job....and just took anything that came along. I did night work for a budget hotel and worked my way up to manager and that is where I am now.

The money is atrocious...just above minimum wage...but the job satisfaction is amazing.

This economy is dreadful for young people especially but even worse for old gits...even though ageism is allegedly illegal (yeh right!).

Life is what you can scrape together to hold on...as someone said...nobody owes anyone a living and this is quite a hard lesson to learn.

If you have skills you NEVER know when they will make or break your chance to get and keep a job...so keep getting as many as you can. Try to get someone else to pay for those qualifications if you can!

I wish you all the very best in your search...but most of all...project a keen and happy image...not everyone is horrible in this world and you WILL find your niche mate...

It would appear that some kind person is already interested in you...grab it mate...with BOTH HANDS!

Cheers

Jim

 

[EdK]

No idea about the original question as work over here seems a little different than the mainland but a mate of mine gave up work in the finance industry (main employer here) and did an apprenticeship for about 5 years. The year before last he set up his own business and now makes doors / windows / stairs etc.

After the first month things really took off and I hooked him up with another mate of mine who was leaving the finance industry (and had decided to go to college one day a week for joinery - think it is an HND over three years ?)

Now they do really well - always busy, all word of mouth and they work long hours and make it all happen. Quite alot of overhead with the tools and so on but they make a decent wage out of it.

All the best - Ed

 

[petermillard]

To the OP, you seem to be taking everything personally; honestly, the world isn't out to 'get you' (even though sometimes it might seem that way) but as others have said, it doesn't owe you a living either.

I don't want to turn this into a self-help guide, but… you do seem to have been concentrating on the things you can't do - how about thinking about the things you can do? And look on the bright side FFS; you're young (at least I hope so if your mum's subbing you..) with accommodation and in London. Go and stand at your front door and visualise a 15 minute journey in each direction - doesn't matter if you're walking, cycling or driving (doesn't make much difference in London, to be honest) then think about how many flats and houses, shops and offices there are in that area; hundreds? Thoousands? I'll guarantee that there'll be something small that needs doing in every one. Can you imagine how few opportunities you'd have if you were living in a small village in, say Suffolk?

Let's recap - you're in 'full-time' education that ties you up for three days a week and need to earn a few quid. So how about putting yourself about for the other 4 days a week as a handyman just doing small jobs - flatpack assembly, putting up blinds, hanging pictures etc.. etc..?

You'll need very few tools to start with. Get some cards printed (can be done very cheaply) and push them through a few doors in the surrounding streets; if you can return a phone call in passable English and turn up on time you'll get work. If you do a decent job as well, you'll get repeat work and recommendations - before you know it, you've got a business.

It may not be what you want to do forever, but I'd guess that you'll be earning a lot more than you would at somewhere like Homebase, and probably for far fewer hours.

HTH, Pete.