Glues Blues

[Ttrees]

Hi folks
So this is the second bottle of glue I've bought this week...
The first being an affordable offerings PVA d3 adhesive that made me learn a lesson
Pity as Ive had to shop elsewhere to find the ol reliable ...that's hopefully not so old .

After rough testing this newly purchased premium PVA glue from the local timber-merchants
it seems like after 30hrs its was not a good bond ...
As in not shear strength ..tear the face grain off .
So here I am again.. having cleaned the mess up and ready for a glue up for the second time.
I thought I would do some proper testing .
13 degrees ,freshly planed with multiple species from left to right ...
Meranti ? Three different offerings of Iroko, ash and beech all dry and in the house since yesterday .
They will be clamped for 48hrs for this test ....if not more .
What say ye ?

I probably should not have bought this glue as there was only 3 bottles left,
but since I was in "the" timber merchants around here, I figured what the heck ...
Although they will probably understand if or when I bring it back, I'm still gonna be faced with the same dilemma.
There's only one more place to look for the stuff and their more of a builders merchants ,although they probably are cheaper
and therefore busier and possibly the place to ,but I expect it would be the same deal ...
Old or frostbitten glue .
Maybe I should just order some Titebond online anymore ...fair enough but it seems strange that
this problem still prevails .
I'm making a strong guess that this premium Ol reliable glue that used to be everywhere is just too expensive these
days to chuck out off the shelves ,hence the barely successful glue hunt I've been doing the past while .

It seems strange to me that the stuff is not stored in warmer spots in the shops
It looks like marketing tactics are at work here ,putting whatever makes the most money at eye level
and so fourth ...
Can these retailers get re embellished for these items that go off .
Say I bring these failed test pieces into the shop,and they order a new batch in (hopefully)
What says that the new batch wont be old, or incorrectly stored in transit .
I've a feeling since were far away here...the send the lesser stuff to yonder hills and planes where it proves too
costly to send back ...
Do and feel the wrath of price hikes or, no bargaining with quantity discounts .
I wonder if they even have a thermometer in these places
So do all the pro's buy all their glue in the summer months and keep them stored correctly ?
I got the feeling from Custard's post about changing glues when the clocks change over,that this could be the norm .

I hope I don't have to ask the question ...
Has anyone received a bottle of unsatisfactory glue by mail in winter ???
Thanks for reading
T

 

[mooed]

I switched from titebond to Gorrilla Glue the PVA obviously) three years ago and never looked back. It's very easy to find in the shops, You can usually find this in general hardware shops, up here Yorkshire Trading and Boyes have it for £7-9 per litre or if you go on ebay/amazon it can be cheaper if you buy in bulk. Never had a problem with bad bottles getting delivered but I've probbaly always have ordered outside of winter.

GG does seem more sensitive to temperature though, I've noticed it running gluppier out of the bottle when I'm sure TB would not have been like that, never tried them side by side. That said I've moved all mine into somewhere warmer already and keep them nearish to a heater when I'm using it, same with stuff glued up when curing.

 

[skipdiver]

You may want to spread the glue out a bit more judging by those photos. If they are small pieces, then you can give them a rub together to spread it about. Larger pieces can be done with some sort of card or a roller even. Applying too much pressure can squeeze out all the glue as well and you look to have a lot of glue on the sides. In all the years i have been using glue, i've never had any disasters and i've bought many different types from many different outlets. Maybe i've just been lucky.

 

[Ttrees]

Hello again
Success with all test pieces ..I've given some rigorous hammer tests
Temp stayed around 13 /14c for duration and the clamps were released after 52hrs .
Just glued up a long strip there, with no problems and plenty of time for the job.
Expensive stuff but it is a sure thing ,and after curing not as thick as it looks when it's just clamped up.
Defiantly a good idea to make wedges for clamping jobs.
I use some stiff clear plastic all the time, beside the bottle for spreading ,I just wanted to show plenty of glue
was used to test .
I might get a proper hammer and see how much face grain remains after pummeling a piece ,but it looks
to be as good as you could get
Thanks for comments folks
T

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Without meaning to cause offense, and in the realms of just being helpful, you need to reassess you glueing technique. The glue is likely to be fine, though buying better quality glue is always the best policy, cheaping out on glue is a false economy. However, the glue in your pictures is incorrectly spread, it doesn't look like the wood to be bonded is planed glass smooth, and you are not applying enough clamping pressure.

Resin W is a good glue, though, I would recommend it to builders merchants spurious brands.

Mike.

 

[Ttrees]

Hello again
Thanks for reminding me woodbrains
I forgot most of all, about the all important glue joint !
It would be a pointless thread if there hadn't been a photo .
Just off the jack plane, so I could possibly get it a wee bit finer .

 

[ColeyS1]

Iroko is a pig to glue at the best of times, even with a good glue. If you want to improve the bond, give the surfaces a quick wipe with acetone to remove the surface oils
I've never has an issue with toolstations offerings of pva, but I I'll only use pva/white glue for softwood,tulip wood,mdf .
Edge jointing softwood or tulip wood, then polyurethane has never let me down. Edge jointing any other type of timber, then it's either cascamite or resin if the woods a little oily. Titebond glue has its place also, majority of the time other glues do the job just as well.
To be honest I think expecting one type of glue to do well at any type of timber you throw at it, is expecting a bit much. You may be lucky, but having a few different glues and knowing when best to use them may be a better choice long term.

Coley

 

[ComfortablyNumb]

pva doesn't work on Iroko even if you clean with acetone first. You need something like sovereign cascamite or PU glue

 

[ED65]

Applying too much pressure can squeeze out all the glue as well...

In a home workshop you really can't, it's basically impossible to apply too much pressure. I've tried to starve a joint using large C-clamps and even beyond the crushing point of the wood the joint was still solid as a rock.

People need to stop believing this is a real-world risk with PVA so they're not afraid to fully tighten clamps, especially when doing large panel assemblies where the clamping force spreads out so much along the joint line.

 

[skipdiver]

Applying too much pressure can squeeze out all the glue as well...

In a home workshop you really can't, it's basically impossible to apply too much pressure. I've tried to starve a joint using large C-clamps and even beyond the crushing point of the wood the joint was still solid as a rock.

People need to stop believing this is a real-world risk with PVA so they're not afraid to fully tighten clamps, especially when doing large panel assemblies where the clamping force spreads out so much along the joint line.

Some would beg to differ, each to their own.

 

[ED65]

Okay, beg to differ. I mean give details. I can promise you that other factors were the cause and not the clamp pressure.

Starved joints are absolutely possible in other glues, including epoxy. But darned hard to achieve using PVA on the majority of woods. No need to take any individual's word on this, we can go to the people whose job it is to know: Franklin (makers of Titebond) have never been able to achieve a starved joint from excessive clamp pressure!

 

[woodbrains]

pva doesn't work on Iroko even if you clean with acetone first. You need something like sovereign cascamite or PU glue

Hello,

Ssshh, if my 15 year old iroko kitchen worktops hear that it impossible to glue them with PVA they might spontaneously fall apart, as up until now, they have been solid as rocks.

Mike.

 

[custard]

Okay, beg to differ. I mean give details. I can promise you that other factors were the cause and not the clamp pressure.

I tend to agree with that.

Bruce Hoadley is generally regarded as the glue-up guru. His tests show that a heavy duty sash cramp can deliver a pressure of about 2,000lbs, but the slightest trace of rust or general wear and tear can easily halve that. Most European or American hardwoods have recommended optimum cramp pressure of 100-250 psi with PVA, rising to 300 psi for tropical hardwoods.

If you do the maths you can see that, if say you're jointing boards to make a top, then you'd struggle to actually fit enough sash cramps onto the workpiece to exceed this optimum, even assuming you have that many cramps available! Bottom line is that, outside of industry with hydraulic presses, the average woodworker doesn't need to worry about excess pressure causing glue starvation.

 

[mooed]

Okay, beg to differ. I mean give details. I can promise you that other factors were the cause and not the clamp pressure.

I tend to agree with that.

Is it maybe the case where people have excessively clamped it was because the faces were not square in the first place so more force was required to close the joint?

 

[skipdiver]

Okay, beg to differ. I mean give details. I can promise you that other factors were the cause and not the clamp pressure.

Starved joints are absolutely possible in other glues, including epoxy. But darned hard to achieve using PVA on the majority of woods. No need to take any individual's word on this, we can go to the people whose job it is to know: Franklin (makers of Titebond) have never been able to achieve a starved joint from excessive clamp pressure!

Alright, i'll bite.

https://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue_methods.html

 

[iNewbie]

I'd like to read this but I'm not a member.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2007/11/ ... t-clamping

 

[mooed]

I'd like to read this but I'm not a member.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2007/11/ ... t-clamping

I have this one, I don't want to post the whole article for copyright reasons, however the first two sentences of the actual article should give you a feel for the conclusion.

A common saying among woodworkers is, You can never have too many clamps. Turns out, it might be more accurate to say that you can never apply too much force.

I could summarise the main points if there was interest, doubt I'd get it finished tonight.

 

[woodbrains]

Okay, beg to differ. I mean give details. I can promise you that other factors were the cause and not the clamp pressure.

Starved joints are absolutely possible in other glues, including epoxy. But darned hard to achieve using PVA on the majority of woods. No need to take any individual's word on this, we can go to the people whose job it is to know: Franklin (makers of Titebond) have never been able to achieve a starved joint from excessive clamp pressure!

Alright, i'll bite.

https://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue_methods.html

Hello,

Unfortunately, this guy is totally wrong. The reason; he thinks that PVA and derivatives act like a resin such as epoxy, so he tested the glue as if is works like a resin. Keyed surfaces are necessary for a resin , so he abraded or scraper the surfaces, which is what you would do for a resin type glue, so it is not surprising that squeezing the glue out of the keyed surfaces with pressure led to glue line failure. But we do not have glue lines between a good wood to wood bond. The surfaces should be as smooth as possible, i.e. straight from a sharp plane. The glue then bonds at a cellular level, and high pressure forces the glue further into the surfaces. When a properly glued joint is broken, no glue should be visible, certainly not like in the photos shown in the article where thick glue lines seem to be thought of as best, by the author. They are not. A good glued joint is not likely to even break on the glue line. Usually the break is in the wood, and the broken joint has wood still in contact with the joint, the break being elsewhere. This article only proves the authors lack of knowledge on how glue works and his own poor joinery techniques. A good glue joint takes much higher force to break than the author seems to think necessary. It should be the same sort of force needed to shear the wood fibres. If an unglued piece of timber is stressed to destruction and that force measured, which is a lot higher than recorded in the article, the glue should be expected to still be holding, in a properly made joint.

Mike.

 

[andersonec]

Applying too much pressure can squeeze out all the glue as well...

In a home workshop you really can't, it's basically impossible to apply too much pressure. I've tried to starve a joint using large C-clamps and even beyond the crushing point of the wood the joint was still solid as a rock.

People need to stop believing this is a real-world risk with PVA so they're not afraid to fully tighten clamps, especially when doing large panel assemblies where the clamping force spreads out so much along the joint line.

Some would beg to differ, each to their own.

You need to see the pressure applied to kitchen worktops by the machines when they are being manufactured. They also use D4 PVA Speat to a firm like Norfolk Oak.

To prove the holding power of PVA my instructor back in the 60's edge glued two 12" long, 1" thick pieces with sash cramps, we went for a THIRTY MINUTE break and on our return he placed the glued bits on some blocks which were on the extreme edges of the plank then smacked it with a mallet, the wood split and not at the glued joint. The point of the exercise was to show that good preparation of the surfaces is a must and not a lot of glue is required, a thin layer spread evenly was sufficient and that was D3 50 years ago.

You pays your money and takes your chance when buying cheap glue, why scrimp for a couple of quid when the failed result could cost a lot more?

Andy

 

[iNewbie]

I'd like to read this but I'm not a member.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2007/11/ ... t-clamping

I have this one, I don't want to post the whole article for copyright reasons, however the first two sentences of the actual article should give you a feel for the conclusion.

A common saying among woodworkers is, You can never have too many clamps. Turns out, it might be more accurate to say that you can never apply too much force.

I could summarise the main points if there was interest, doubt I'd get it finished tonight.

I understand about CR reasons mooed. Thanks for the offer though.