Academic argument is the basis for a good forum, especially when it is based on personal experience of the subject matter. And its not like folk are calling each other rude names. We can agree to disagree, and have a riotous chinwag about it.
Getting an Old Pigsticker Ready for Work
- Thread starter paulc
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
It's a one way thing - I've got Mr Bevel Rider on ignore!
Actually it's been interesting and throws up a few new ideas as these threads sometimes do.
Would like to know what a 1/8" OBM is used for, there's a lot of them about. I've got three!
Who needs an 1/8"slot? They certainly cut pretty quickly. Maybe for cutting a letter plate slot in a door? Two parallel slots along the grain and a keyhole saw across to take out the middle?
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Conclusion?
1 The OBM chisel I use above, or what Joel calls the "English mortice chisel" is very different from the "sash" chisel and all the modern offerings of so-called mortice chisels from LN, Narex and others, except Ray Iles apparently.
Hence rambling arguments at cross purposes.
2 Joel himself seems not to have noticed this and describes the difficult Moxon way of morticing, which is appropriate for the sash or parallel-sided chisel but absolutely not necessary with the OBM chisel which is much easier to use and produces a precise mortice.
3 Many of the demos on Youtube seem to show people trying to mortice with sash chisel variants rather than the OBM and having difficulty - all that levering, "bevel riding" and general hacking, plus having to correct with paring chisels and floats!
4 If you use the OBM you then have a precise reference for the tenons and these can be cut exactly to fit, rather than fiddling about adjusting them too, with router planes, shoulder planes.
5 I show the use of a beech "drift" which isn't essential but is useful and itself becomes the best reference for the tenons to be cut later. You can adjust the drift to be a nice push fit, knowing that it will fit exactly to ALL the mortices cut with the same chisel same size. Then make all tenons to match. Saves hours and hours!
6 Just spotted this. https://cdn.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/MORTISE_BY_HAND.pdf
Only had a glance - not too impressed by the technique. n.b. if you are cutting mortices in a groove you have made a mistake - the mortices are the first things to cut, followed by tenon cheeks (not shoulders), grooves, mouldings, rebates , tenon shoulders last.
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Adam W.
A Major Clanger
I'm surprised that he doesn't call them Old England mortise chisels like the beardy sandal wearers over at Mortise and Tenon Mag.
Kumbaya!
Kumbaya!
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Anyone else run out of popcorn?
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I haven't finished yet - I'd get some more popcorn in while there's a break!
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
8.
I bought a Mortise & Tenon publication "Joined - A Bench Guide to Furniture joinery" and just found it again at the back of a cupboard, I'd forgotten all about it.
Should be interesting - these people are in search of the holy grail of perfect traditional hand tool joinery.
"Knights of the square table"?
They've obviously got everything going for them, with the modern advantage of online access to information and plenty of dosh for kit, materials and their very attractive premises.
He starts his M&T chapter well - with what looks like the Ray Iles OBM, which looks excellent. Seems you can't buy them on the UK.
He's not sure about which to cut first which is a surprise. He takes it for granted that each tenon is adjusted to fit each mortice! If he had a lot to do he'd soon find out why this is not good i.e. the mortice size is dictated precisely by the chisel, and the tenons can and should be made exactly to fit them, although a little adjustment may be necessary. You need a mortice first to be able to check the tenons- it's only a hairs breadth variation of saw cut on the line, near the line etc which will make it a good fit, and once you've got it you do them all the same.
He works on a pig bench which is a good idea but here's the big deja-vu surprise for me - he's doing it much like I was doing it in 1982 when I was told off by the teacher and shown how to do it properly! He's even slouching side-saddle the same, which is not good - it has to be astride. He's also prying & levering away frantically in all directions probably more than doubling the work time. However he does recognise that levering can damage the edge of the mortice.
n.b. a reminder - what you do is chop the mortice complete, through the chippings, chisel vertical all the time one thin slice off the face of the previous cut, and only when finished tap out the chippings, or prise them out if any left - perhaps with a smaller chisel to avoid damaging the edges.
So far only Corkhill & Lowsley have shown a picture of how to do it and Ellis gives a reasonable description. Haven't seen a vid worth looking at but no doubt they are out there somewhere!
PS Picture here of our man doing a mortice badly (3rd from top on the left.)
Actually there are plenty of other interesting things in the book but it's a touch self important, not to mention expensive.
https://www.classichandtools.com/joined-a-bench-guide-to-furniture-joinery/p882
I bought a Mortise & Tenon publication "Joined - A Bench Guide to Furniture joinery" and just found it again at the back of a cupboard, I'd forgotten all about it.
Should be interesting - these people are in search of the holy grail of perfect traditional hand tool joinery.
"Knights of the square table"?
They've obviously got everything going for them, with the modern advantage of online access to information and plenty of dosh for kit, materials and their very attractive premises.
He starts his M&T chapter well - with what looks like the Ray Iles OBM, which looks excellent. Seems you can't buy them on the UK.
He's not sure about which to cut first which is a surprise. He takes it for granted that each tenon is adjusted to fit each mortice! If he had a lot to do he'd soon find out why this is not good i.e. the mortice size is dictated precisely by the chisel, and the tenons can and should be made exactly to fit them, although a little adjustment may be necessary. You need a mortice first to be able to check the tenons- it's only a hairs breadth variation of saw cut on the line, near the line etc which will make it a good fit, and once you've got it you do them all the same.
He works on a pig bench which is a good idea but here's the big deja-vu surprise for me - he's doing it much like I was doing it in 1982 when I was told off by the teacher and shown how to do it properly! He's even slouching side-saddle the same, which is not good - it has to be astride. He's also prying & levering away frantically in all directions probably more than doubling the work time. However he does recognise that levering can damage the edge of the mortice.
n.b. a reminder - what you do is chop the mortice complete, through the chippings, chisel vertical all the time one thin slice off the face of the previous cut, and only when finished tap out the chippings, or prise them out if any left - perhaps with a smaller chisel to avoid damaging the edges.
So far only Corkhill & Lowsley have shown a picture of how to do it and Ellis gives a reasonable description. Haven't seen a vid worth looking at but no doubt they are out there somewhere!
PS Picture here of our man doing a mortice badly (3rd from top on the left.)
Actually there are plenty of other interesting things in the book but it's a touch self important, not to mention expensive.
https://www.classichandtools.com/joined-a-bench-guide-to-furniture-joinery/p882
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8.
I bought a Mortise & Tenon publication "Joined - A Bench Guide to Furniture joinery" and just found it again at the back of a cupboard, I'd forgotten all about it.
Should be interesting - these people are in search of the holy grail of perfect traditional hand tool joinery.
"Knights of the square table"?
They've obviously got everything going for them, with the modern advantage of online access to information and plenty of dosh for kit, materials and their very attractive premises.
He starts his M&T chapter well - with what looks like the Ray Iles OBM, which looks excellent. Seems you can't buy them on the UK.
He's not sure about which to cut first which is a surprise. He takes it for granted that each tenon is adjusted to fit each mortice! If he had a lot to do he'd soon find out why this is not good i.e. the mortice size is dictated precisely by the chisel, and the tenons can and should be made exactly to fit them, although a little adjustment may be necessary. You need a mortice first to be able to check the tenons- it's only a hairs breadth variation of saw cut on the line, near the line etc which will make it a good fit, and once you've got it you do them all the same.
He works on a pig bench which is a good idea but here's the big deja-vu surprise for me - he's doing it much like I was doing it in 1982 when I was told off by the teacher and shown how to do it properly! He's even slouching side-saddle the same, which is not good - it has to be astride. He's also prying & levering away frantically in all directions probably more than doubling the work time. However he does recognise that levering can damage the edge of the mortice.
n.b. a reminder - what you do is chop the mortice complete, through the chippings, chisel vertical all the time one thin slice off the face of the previous cut, and only when finished tap out the chippings, or prise them out if any left - perhaps with a smaller chisel to avoid damaging the edges.
So far only Corkhill & Lowsley have shown a picture of how to do it and Ellis gives a reasonable description. Haven't seen a vid worth looking at but no doubt they are out there somewhere!
View attachment 131657
PS Picture here of our man doing a mortice badly (3rd from top on the left.)
Actually there are plenty of other interesting things in the book but it's a touch self important, not to mention expensive.
https://www.classichandtools.com/joined-a-bench-guide-to-furniture-joinery/p882
Make a video jacob. I can tell your tires get more pressure in them each time you congratulate yourself about technique.
I have a distaste for sellers as I doubt he ever actually did any fine work for income, but...
....I went and looked at his video about making mortises (he rides the bevel) and I have to admit other than the presentation being a little bit too deliberate (he is teaching beginners after all), his mortise method is fine.
I don't know why he feels the need to flip the chisel to the flat back to trim the ends (they can be done bevel against the ends as well as they can any other way - no need to waste time turning the chisel over), but that's small details.
he doesn't get stuck having to explain away the tall height and rounded top of oval bolstered chisels like someone who thinks the bevel should face the open side, and he removes the chips while creating the mortise (which is something anyone with a small amount of sense would figure out pretty quickly).
....I went and looked at his video about making mortises (he rides the bevel) and I have to admit other than the presentation being a little bit too deliberate (he is teaching beginners after all), his mortise method is fine.
I don't know why he feels the need to flip the chisel to the flat back to trim the ends (they can be done bevel against the ends as well as they can any other way - no need to waste time turning the chisel over), but that's small details.
he doesn't get stuck having to explain away the tall height and rounded top of oval bolstered chisels like someone who thinks the bevel should face the open side, and he removes the chips while creating the mortise (which is something anyone with a small amount of sense would figure out pretty quickly).
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Another book! “Worked: A Bench Guide to Hand-Tool Efficiency” Book8.
I bought a Mortise & Tenon publication "Joined - A Bench Guide to Furniture joinery" and just found it again at the back of a cupboard, I'd forgotten all about it.
Should be interesting - these people are in search of the holy grail of perfect traditional hand tool joinery.
"Knights of the square table"?
They've obviously got everything going for them, with the modern advantage of online access to information and plenty of dosh for kit, materials and their very attractive premises.
He starts his M&T chapter well - with what looks like the Ray Iles OBM, which looks excellent. Seems you can't buy them on the UK.
He's not sure about which to cut first which is a surprise. He takes it for granted that each tenon is adjusted to fit each mortice! If he had a lot to do he'd soon find out why this is not good i.e. the mortice size is dictated precisely by the chisel, and the tenons can and should be made exactly to fit them, although a little adjustment may be necessary. You need a mortice first to be able to check the tenons- it's only a hairs breadth variation of saw cut on the line, near the line etc which will make it a good fit, and once you've got it you do them all the same.
He works on a pig bench which is a good idea but here's the big deja-vu surprise for me - he's doing it much like I was doing it in 1982 when I was told off by the teacher and shown how to do it properly! He's even slouching side-saddle the same, which is not good - it has to be astride. He's also prying & levering away frantically in all directions probably more than doubling the work time. However he does recognise that levering can damage the edge of the mortice.
n.b. a reminder - what you do is chop the mortice complete, through the chippings, chisel vertical all the time one thin slice off the face of the previous cut, and only when finished tap out the chippings, or prise them out if any left - perhaps with a smaller chisel to avoid damaging the edges.
So far only Corkhill & Lowsley have shown a picture of how to do it and Ellis gives a reasonable description. Haven't seen a vid worth looking at but no doubt they are out there somewhere!
View attachment 131657
PS Picture here of our man doing a mortice badly (3rd from top on the left.)
Actually there are plenty of other interesting things in the book but it's a touch self important, not to mention expensive.
https://www.classichandtools.com/joined-a-bench-guide-to-furniture-joinery/p882
He doesn't seem to know how to rip saw efficiently.
He's nearly there but cutting it hanging over the edge of a saw stool is not easy. Much easier to stick it over the end and then reverse half way. You can put much more force into it. Even more if you use two saw horses. Rip-sawing by hand
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You should like that guy - he's almost exactly like paul sellers from what I can see (I have no idea who the guy is, by the way).
The page has all kinds of stuff on it and not much as far as portfolio. I'm not about to sort through his hand tool technique stuff, but I wouldn't sort through yours either. I'm not going to ask if you'd watch any of mine because I don't care and you mentioned running a power tool using business for 30 years.
But I'll repeat what I said earlier. If you know so much, put up some videos. It's free to do. Go ahead.
Work on something other than pine, though. For God's sake, all of these sites use stock that looks like it came from the common wood rack at home depot or pre-cut oak or something.
(I'd never rip wood on saw horses, either - that's construction work).
The page has all kinds of stuff on it and not much as far as portfolio. I'm not about to sort through his hand tool technique stuff, but I wouldn't sort through yours either. I'm not going to ask if you'd watch any of mine because I don't care and you mentioned running a power tool using business for 30 years.
But I'll repeat what I said earlier. If you know so much, put up some videos. It's free to do. Go ahead.
Work on something other than pine, though. For God's sake, all of these sites use stock that looks like it came from the common wood rack at home depot or pre-cut oak or something.
(I'd never rip wood on saw horses, either - that's construction work).
TomB
Established Member
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I just happened to get their promotional email yesterday. They make extravagant claims for themselves which shouldn't pass without comment.
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dannyr
Established Member
I think Paul's chisel's getting rusty, will he ever ask for advice again?
Devmeister
Established Member
What an awsome cartoon. Years ago I posted a video on how to thread with the hardinge HLV lathe. The HLV does not thread like most lathes ad it’s different. I bought this lathe at auction years ago. The last price Hardinge had on it was about 150,000 dollars!!’
Not knowing how this lathe works in comparison to day a myford ML7, I contacted Hardinge. They told me no worries and sent me a Manuel on how to thread with the HLV. It was actually simple and I like it a lot.
So one of these Nellys posts a response that 1). I don’t know what I am doing. Never mind it’s happening in the video successfully. And 2). I shouldn’t be proposing to teach the craft.
My buddy at Hardinge laughed and told me to calm down. I was furious and ripped him a new one.
This cartoon says everything. It’s people like that who drive old timers with skills like me underground.
He certainly has credentials. But it sounds like he is doing it wrong as he doesn’t do it the way you learned. Is that what I’m reading? Popcorn maker is on!Another book! “Worked: A Bench Guide to Hand-Tool Efficiency” Book
He doesn't seem to know how to rip saw efficiently.
He's nearly there but cutting it hanging over the edge of a saw stool is not easy. Much easier to stick it over the end and then reverse half way. You can put much more force into it. Even more if you use two saw horses. Rip-sawing by hand
Attachments
Over the years I’ve taught hundreds of guys to frame houses. The worst guys were the ones that had one or two bosses in there life , learned one way, the right way they say and have a closed mind. The best guys were the ones that had multiple bosses including myself and took the best of what suited them to acquire there way of doing the job. They ended up with doing a perfect job with with all the bits and pieces they took from each boss to a suite there way of doing it. It always ended up being the most efficient fastest way to achieve the end result for them. And they also were the most open minded, if a new person came along with a different way of doing it or a younger person came along with a new tool or way of doing it . They stopped listen and then either incorporated it into there skill set or not. But they made the best teachers.
at least you posted a video! I think a lot of the trouble you find on YT, though, or wherever you post a video is old timers who learn to be confident in their limited experience because they're in a bubble.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Try ripping a board on the edge of a saw horse, then try it with the board over the end (in the conventional fashion). The latter is easier, especially if you are putting effort into it.
PS and/or between two saw horses
PPS I "learned" how to do it by having to do it often on site work (period joinery restoration etc) and having no choice. Easiest and quickest preferred every time - but pleasing to see it confirmed in the old books!
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I think lots of folks are waiting for you to demonstrate this both efficiently and accurately. With all of the criticism, it must be easy to do. Really - like start a channel and make a video a week demonstrating something from start to finish. I don't know why you lobby us all the time and then show test joints in pine - I would bet many get email from this or that new guru, but their lack of response to your posts is because they tune you out. There's no outcome - show everyone in rhythm and fine work that you'd deliver to a client.
I don't mean a sandbox frame either. Put up for once.
I don't mean a sandbox frame either. Put up for once.
