garden gate - most suitable timber and construction method

[mickthetree]

Hi all

I've been asked to make a new garden gate for my folks.

Their current gate is 6ft tall by 3ft 10ins wide. There is a 3in sq post on each side as a frame providing an anchor for the hinges against the house wall and the other side is for the latch. Both the hinge post and the latch post are the same hight as the gate. The top rail is only there to keep the frame square as the latch side is not fixed in the ground.

The current gate has been in situ longer than they've lived there (25 years) and they have never given it any treatment or care. Although the bottom foot is now rotten as the dog has discovered! :lol:

Firstly what would be the most suitable timber? Cedar is naturally weather resistant no? I guess oak? and what sort of finish would last best outside? Cost is also a factor. Isnt it always! so does that rule cedar out?

They are after something similar looking. I would need to make it as impervious to water ingress as possible, to which end I assume I wouldnt want through mortices in the frame as the end grain would be exposed??

any suggestions or pointers would be greatly appreciated.

 

[OPJ]

You could use pressure-treated softwood (by which I mean joinery-grade redwood, not spruce!), which should work out significantly cheaper than doing the same job in oak. You'd need to buy the redwood first, do all the machining and then send it off for treatment. Do not buy "sawn treated timber" as this stuff is barely suitable for use outdoors as it is! :? With regular maintenance, it should last a while.

I'm not a fan of through tenons in exposed, exterior joinery for the same reason; water could make its way in through the end-grain. Nothing wrong with blind mortises and a good old draw-boring joint. :wink:

Another idea is to put a slight bevel on the top edges of all rails, so that the water is actually encouraged to run off.

 

[dexter]

If cost is an issue, I`m with OPJ on his sugestion, Oak is not going to be cheap and I bet the gate thats been there over 25yrs isnt oak.

Dex

 

[mickthetree]

Thanks dex and olly. It all makes sense now. I thought the grain looked like softwood. But couldn't believe that a softwood gate could last 25+ years with no treatment.

also wondered why all the gates i'd seen online were redwood.

Like the tip about the rails olly. Thanks.

I'll draw up some plans this week.

When am I ever going to get to that competition entry?

 

[Harbo]

I made one similar to the one pictured over 30 years ago out of oak and cladded with oak close boarded fencing. Painted occasionally with Cuprinol Fence Paint after a jet wash to remove the algae (it's situated in a shaded passageway).
The only problem is it's extremely heavy and required substantial hinges.
No fancy joints - just half laps for the main frame. No signs of any rot.

Rod

 

[JanneKi]

But couldn't believe that a softwood gate could last 25+ years with no treatment.

If wood is able dry up after it's gotten wet and there is no soil contact on it, it will last forever. There are timber houses in Scandinavia that are >1000 years old. As long as the roof holds water and they are well ventilated from below and high enough from the ground, they will last forever.

The problem with fences/gates is, that there is no roof. You could for example have a small "roof" made out of bent sheet metal for example on top of the gate to keep most of the directly falling water out of harms way.

You could raise the gate from the ground a bit (though your dog might find that too handy). Be extra careful with the ends of the gate, cutting the ends of the boards/panels to a 25 degree angle for example will allow the water to drop off vs. cutting it straight (90 degree) where it can soak up into the end grain. (edit) - also note that if you have wood end-grain up it's also a good idea to do this same bevel cut to the tops as well, if they are exposed to the elements.


Another solution is to put a kick-board vertically to the bottom of the gate (that is easy replace) OR put in a kick-board made out of metal. As you've noticed it is actually ONLY the bottom part of the gate that has rotted, nothing else.

 

[mickthetree]

Thanks for explaining all of that j. Very helpful indeed!

 

[John. B]

This is the gate I made for my side entrance, all of softwood, same frame as your's but T&G front into an outside frame.
The T&G are not glued, (they do move in the sun when we have it :? ) but do have small bolts into the cross frame.
Being softwood it does need to be painted. But it's easy and doesn't take long. After 4 years it still looks as good as new, and it has only been painted twice.

(The tiles are of felt BTW 8) )


John. B

 

[mickthetree]

I'm in the midst of making this gate now and have a couple of questions.

I plan on putting some sort of sealant on the gate (including inside mortises and on tenons) before assembly.

Is this the right thing to do? Will it make the wood swell? Should I cut the tenons a little looser to accommodate this?

The horizontal rails are to be morticed and tenoned into the styles, but how should I connect the diagonals? I cant work out from the current gate how they are connected unless I take it apart (which I cant do until the new one is finished!!)

Excuse the poor drawing, but maybe an arrangement sort of like this, with tenons going into both the stiles and rails? Or is that a bit overkill??

 

[OPJ]

By 'sealant', I hope you actually mean preservative! :shock: :wink: ...In which case, it would be a good idea to coat all components before assembly. This isn't likely to swell the joints unless you sent the timber off to be 'tanalised' in a vacuum tank. So, do cut them for a snug fit; not too tight and certainly not too loose.

No need to mess about with tenons on the braces. Commercially, these would be pinned (nailed) or screwed to the rails, going through the edge of the brace (not the face). Traditionally, you would 'scribe' these braces with notches cut in the rails to suit. It's a bit of extra work but it's worth it when you make a tidy job of it.

 

[mickthetree]

Thanks for looking at this Olly.

Yes I meant preservative!!

I think I get what you mean. Again apologies for the poor sketch, but I think this is it....(assume all lines are straight and not curved!)

Screws from underneath to hold it in place??

 

[OPJ]

Not quite... :?

As far as I know, there are three ways of doing it. This first one is the easiest:

http://www.coleridgewaycottages.co.uk/images/Bedroom/BedroomDoor.jpg

This one offers a slight variation, although it remains straightforward:

http://www.barndoors.net/Pictures/IMG_0158.JPG

This is what I was thinking of:

http://www.ewtrading.co.uk/Images/Photos/new_doors/doors_large/3-ledge+brace.jpg

(Only reason I haven't posted the images here is because they're quite large). I can't find any instructions but, there is a general rule for setting them out... Come in 50mm from the end of each rail and draw a line at 90° to the length of the brace. Make the length of this line one-third the width of the brace and then join this to the other point where the opposite edge of the brace meets the rail. Hope that makes some sense!

With the screwing, I was actually thinking of screwing down through the edge of the brace (in your picture) and in to the rail. I've also known people to biscuit joint them for added reinforcement.

 

[GraemeM]

You probably know loads of this already, but just in case his a few bits of info and a diagram.

The original gate looks Framed Ledged and Braced i.e. there is a solid frame usually 50mm think on the top and the sides. Thats probably one of the reasons the gate has lasted well.

The top, middle and bottom ledges are morticed into the side rails. Middle and bottom ledges are thinner to allow for the matchings/tung and grove boards on the front of the door. In most cases the braces are simply cut to fit into the right angle of (for example) middle ledge and side (stile), the brace is then nailed screwed to the boards.

The main purpose of the braces is stops the door dropping i.e. the square of the door going out of aligment. So there is no need to over complicate the way that the braces join the stile and legde.

Dont forget the brace goes from the top away from the hinge to the bottom next to the hinge side.

Take a bit of time to look at the attached, its not the best diagram, but all the elements of how and framed ledged and braced door/gate is put together are there.

http://s915.photobucket.com/albums/ac353/GraemeMoores/?action=view&current=FLBBasics.jpg

Hope this helps and good luck, doors and gates are a pleasure to make and fit!

Graeme[/url]

 

[mickthetree]

Graeme

I think you may have got the jist that I'm struggling with the names and what not with this gate.

A light bulb came on when I read your framed, braced and ledged door bit. Each of those elements makes perfect sense now!

I must admit I didnt really understand what the ledges were actually for (or that it mattered which way round they go but now you've explained it I'm on a clearer path.

I've bought similar size timber to the original gate (yup 50mm as you suggested) but I'm not sure there is enough material to create double tenons as per the diagram. Although I could be wrong here.

Also I'm not going to make through tenons as that leaves the end grain exposed (which is contrary to what I've read)

I think a lot of this I've got right just by copying the original gate, but I definately understand it all a lot more now!! Many thanks.

can I ask what book you got the page from?

 

[GraemeM]

Cheers.

The diagram was from a book.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CCYQ6AEwBw

 

[ondablade]

The purpose of the diagonal braces is basically to prevent 'racking' or sagging down of the corner of the main frame furthest away from the hinges under its own weight.

That means (if it's installed in the right direction) that it's in compression - it effectively needs only to be neatly butt fitted (?) into the opposite corners to do its job. My instinct would be to angle the end so that it bears against both the horizontal and vertical parts of the frame.

Just in case - you sometimes see diagonally planked doors, but it brings in a risk of warping.

It's probably committed by now, but iroko can be a good choice for that sort of outdoor stuff. It's very oily, and provided you like the resulting grey colour it really doesn't need painting. Care is needed when gluing it though, wash the oil off with acetone or something like that, and use a polyurethane glue.

It's best as already said not to expose any end grain, and to make sure that any that must be is very well sealed...

 

[aesmith]

Hesitate to chip in here, but if the brace bears against the stile, it will be trying to push the mortice/tenon joint open. Shouldn't it bear only on the rails?

 

[mickthetree]

The gate is coming on well. The frame and braces are all in place, just marking up the ledges now (I think I've finally gotten the hang of the naming convention!)

Apologies for the poor quality pic. The gate JUST about fits into my shed 8)

Olly, I like the third example you gave as it would seem that under compression the ledges are forcing the mortice and tenon joints together (as aesmith pointed out too!)

Yes Graeme too late for that, but thanks for the heads up.

My next question I planned on pinning the M+Ts with hardwood dowel. However this means the endgrain of the dowel will be exposed (albeit treated)

Also should I pin all of the M+Ts?

Finally there are areas which are obvious catches for water to pool in (bottom the the ledges where they meet the braces and the top of the braces themselves)

I was thinking about creating an angle on these areas to allow water to run off easier.

Worth it?

 

[OPJ]

Paul, don't worry about the hardwood dowel - that could potentially outlast the softwood frame! (Sorry, that's not meant to sound critical of your work or anything. ) Pinning (or, even better, draw-boring) all your mortise and tenon joints would be a very good idea indeed.

I'd also recommend putting a bevel on the top edges of the rails (ledges), as you suggest. As long as it's not so big that it leaves the mortises exposed... :wink: