Garage door design

[jpor4180]

So I'm looking to make a side hinged garage door. Due to the slope of my drive, it is going to be tight, but if I build a slightly thicker frame this should be possible.

Mum has to sign off on this one! The design she likes is found here: https://www.garagedoorsonline.co.uk/cat ... edar/g/230

The principal demands of this garage door are security and durability (by durable I mean to be used daily). My current door is a gliderol and I'm not remotely happy with it. It could be peeled open with a recip saw in a matter of seconds. The door will be used in conjunction with a garage door defender, and probably two locks and a slide across bolt from the back for when I'm away.

The appearance of the wood itself isn't a concern as it is to be painted black. I

The dimensions of the opening are 2285mm wide and 2135mm high.

What I'm struggling to rationalise is:

• 
  Is Cedar the best wood (strength, stability, cost)?
  What thickness should I be aiming for on the styles and rails?
  What thickness should I be aiming for on the raised panels (before routing the profile)
  I'd ideally be looking for a hinge that has some fine adjustment, just because this design of door, as far as I can tell would be vulnerable to sagging. I quite like a Soss hinge for appearance of the closed door and it strikes me as a secure option. Is this a valid assumption? Is there a better suited hinge for this purpose that isn't large from the outside?
  If anyone here has made a few similar doors, I'd love a rough cost estimate on materials based on what you think is suitable as I'm a bit lost on that front right now (plus minus £50 or so).
  I see this as a 2.5/3 day project. Does this seem likely?

Thank you in advance!

 

[Doug71]

No replies so I will have a try.

I have made a couple of greenhouses etc out of cedar but never a large pair of doors. It is very durable but also light and quite soft, also expensive.

I think the best wood for something like this is Accoya, it is durable and stable but again expensive.

I am about to be making a similar pair of doors about the same size out of softwood for a barn conversion, planning on finishing them 57mm thick. They have double glazing in the top and boarded bottom.

Regards hinges the large strap ones are traditional on garage doors. The ones I am making will be on the bearing type butt hinge, 4 down each side. If the doors are well made sagging shouldn't be a problem :wink:

Doug

 

[jpor4180]

Hi Doug thanks for the reply - I was starting to feel like I'd said something offensive as nobody wanted to touch it!

I'd seen accoya but I've ruled it out on price. At present I'm torn between cedar and Douglas fir.

The raised panel door design doesn't lend itself to a diagonal cross bracing, do you think just wedged tenon joinery on stiles and rails will be enough?

 

[ColeyS1]

I'd personally use sapele.

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[jpor4180]

Is that because you prefer it to work or for a stable final product?

I recently made a whiskey presentation box with Sapele and even on something as small as that I was picking pink dust out of every orifice for the next week! But if you feel it is more stable than douglas fir/cedar I'd certainly consider it?

As for hinges, I was going to go with 4 of these down each door: https://www.hafele.co.uk/en/product/but ... stSize=129

I think I'll aim for about 54mm, does this seem about right? The glass I'm going to use in the top is only single glazed and taken off of a pair of doors I picked up on gumtree yesterday for £10 so should be plenty for that.

I'm going to need to do something of a threshold near the bottom, 2" high or so, but ramped so that I can get my motorbike in and out. This is to compensate for the slope of the drive over the area the doors open in to.

Things that are still giving me a headache as I design this are clearances around the door and for the hinges. I was hoping to buy the wood tomorrow!

 

[jpor4180]

Oh crucially, how should I get the windows in? M&T each part of the lattice into the door frame or prefab a self-contained window lattice and seat it down into the door frame via a housing?

I feel like the latter would be significantly easier, but I'm unsure what the best practice here is!

 

[ColeyS1]

I use sapele for most external stuff that's gonna be painted. I wouldn't recommend cedar for painting as it's so soft that it wouldn't take much impact to crumble it and ruin any painted finish. It's generally used if you want it to weather naturally to a silvery grey. Douglas fir would be a better choice, sapele is harder again.

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[ColeyS1]

Oh crucially, how should I get the windows in? M&T each part of the lattice into the door frame or prefab a self-contained window lattice and seat it down into the door frame via a housing?

I feel like the latter would be significantly easier, but I'm unsure what the best practice here is!

I'd mortise and tenon each part together. Another thing you may want to consider is whether you groove the panels in or have them fit into a rebate that's held in with beads. Which ever way you choose I'd paint the grooves/rebates and the edges of the panels a few times so it's got some protection. Figuring out some drainage for the bottom of the panels might also be worth thinking about. If water gets in,an easy route out will ensure the panels aren't sat in water rotting away.

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[GarF]

We originally specced accoya for our garage doors, but for various reasons ended up using softwood. We ruled out hardwood on grounds of weight (and relative expense) as our doors are pretty big. The windows were made in a single unit for each door with dummy sash bars planted on.

In hindsight I really wish we'd stuck with accoya, as the windows we got at the same time in accoya have held up much better paint-wise. There has been some wood movement, and we recently had the hinges and lock keepers tweaked to restore smooth operation, not an inconsiderable task as it took me and the joiner some serious huffing and puffing to lift them on and off.

This sounds a potentially enormously rewarding project, so good luck.
G

 

[jpor4180]

I'll price up for Sapele and Douglas Fir and I'll make a decision once I've got that info thanks for the break down

Yeah I was going to have the panels fitting in a housing, I'm actually going to run a housing top to bottom of the stiles, this is for a few reasons. A) it just means I set up the router and make one cut without having to bother with start and stop points B) I can have water drainage if anything gets in top to bottom and C) originally I was going to treat the glass section as a "panel" so that could be slotted in all nice and modular.

Would it be naive of me not to drill drain holes aside from this continuous housing, and to make sure I use an exterior grade silicon product that will take paint round all the windows, panels etc?

I did see Accoya but I simply can't stomach the price of that right now even though I do want to work with it at some point given environmental credentials, stability and hardiness. Hopefully as the market becomes more mature the price will come down. Environmental impact is something I regularly wrestle with given that 90% of what I make is done in MDF!

I can't tell you how helpful this discussion has been, and I feel like I'm on the right track. I want to get the door framed today/tomorrow but it really has been miserable working out in the snow (spent all of yesterday getting my glazing out of the old gumtree doors). To keep a lid on costs I thought I'd just use 4x2 framing timber for this. I was going to start by making sure the legs of the frame are plumb, screwed into the wall, moving on to the head as level, screwed in, then work on the sill. Once that's level, by definition all sides must be square. Then come back, cross brace the whole frame, take it off the wall and lay it down and fit the door on trestles before hanging the whole unit as one. Hopefully my physics degree will come in useful on that one... about time it started paying me back haha

As for costs, it's purely academic now, but I just spent more than I thought I could on hinges and a 5 lever mortice lock direct from Hafele. How much would you typically intend on spending on hardware for a similar door (and where would you go to buy)?

I used to be a painter and decorator to pay for uni, so I guess I'm biased, but I subscribe to the idea that money spent on finish is worth it as it's the first thing you see. I was going to go for F&B Off Black (exterior eggshell). This is partly due to not wanting the neighbours to complaint too. I live on a noddy estate where you have to apply just to change the colour of your door, let alone change your door! I'm not remotely interested in doing that and wouldn't take it down even if they told me to, but I'd rather my neighbours not dob me in all the same because they didn't think it looked nice.

Potentially very rewarding, but also incredibly daunting! This is a long way from mdf shelves and cabinets, I think

 

[will1983]

When fitting your frame don't forget to make sure that both legs are in the same plane. You can check this by running two string lines diagonally from opposing corners, they should just touch in the centre where they cross, if they don't, adjust one leg until they do..

Also don't forget to place packers around the frame before running your screws in, these will prevent the frame from bowing at the screw locations when tightening them up.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing some progress pictures.

 

[ColeyS1]

Those hinges would probably cost a premium cause they've got rounded corners designed so they can be fitted straight from a router jig. They've also got the built in security pins which add to the cost. Normally I allow £7 a pair for 4 inch stainless hinges (but buy in large quantities) and around £30 a lock.

Something like this in the frame would give the same level of security, perhaps at a reduced cost. Your hinges do all of it and much neater, hence the price. Ironmongery direct is a good place to buy ironmongery. They usually have discount codes fairly often as well.

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[Doug71]

I find these guys good for ironmongery https://www.marchesironmongery.co.uk/

When it comes to painting your doors a good base to start with is an aluminium primer, especially on something like sapele. Not sure how well the F&B stuff will work with it though as think they are all water based now and the aluminium is spirit based. Sorry if I am just confusing things!

Doug

 

[ColeyS1]

Aluminium primer is my go to primer as well Doug. I've found dulux to be the best stuff after trying several others. Slightly off topic but here's what dulux recommended to go with the ally primer.

I've only used F & B on an interior project and vowed to never use the stuff again.

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[Doug71]

Coley, that is what I used on my house and recommend to others. Got it colour matched to some F&B and it worked really well. Think because it is really a stain it seems to kind of wear off instead of peeling so it's really easy to rub down and re coat after a few years, no messing with undercoat etc.

Doug

 

[ColeyS1]

Coley, that is what I used on my house and recommend to others. Got it colour matched to some F&B and it worked really well. Think because it is really a stain it seems to kind of wear off instead of peeling so it's really easy to rub down and re coat after a few years, no messing with undercoat etc.

Doug

Did you think it took a little bit of covering ? Like atleast a few good coats before it covered the primer ? That was a light green so perhaps a darker colour would cover quicker ?


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[jpor4180]

Will thanks for the tip, seems obvious to check for coplanar now but there's no way that would have occurred to me! The original plan was to fix the frame then remove and fit the door on the ground but after realising how much shimming and fine adjustment there is I'm going to fix the frame, then make an internal frame for the door and take that out, this will mean. This will maybe make more sense when I do my WIP (which I will do for this!)

Coley, yeah I got quite excited when I saw they were round as I was going to fit them with a router jig, so I'm happy with that. I think I paid about that for the lock, and maybe £5 for the hinges but I bought 8. I'm only going to use 6 though actually and I'll get to that in a second…

I'll take a look at Al primer, and I can buy a F&B sample then get them colour matching it so I'm open to that. I've never used F&B outside but I'm happy to believe it's a nightmare outdoors as I've never enjoyed working with indoors. They do make the best tones though imo

Now for today's annoying, frustrating, downright aggrevating plot twist. My neighbour approached me (I'd shown him the design the other day) and after much prevarication basically said he wouldn't want to see it and would rather I didn't do it. He thinks it's not "in keeping" with the other houses. Unfortunately his opinion is wrong, as the door in question - raised panels with glazing - matches every other front door around and subtle design styling from around the estate. I'll give a bit of an elaboration on this in the WIP but the point is he wants It looking more like the cheap pressed steel up-and-over doors that came with all the houses 20 years ago.

Pains me to do it, but I get on really well with them and I'd rather build something we can both bear than something I like and they hate. The new door will be as here: https://www.garagedoorsonline.co.uk/cat ... door/g/228

It'll be 25mm tongue and groove panels seated in 60mm thick or so stiles and rails round the perimeter, recessed 10mm from the face with a subtle roundover. On the reverse, there will be a rail halfway up at the height of the middle hinge. Two diagonals will transfer stress from the rails above to the middle and bottom hinge respectively. That's the only benefit I can see so far of this design, as I was concerned previously about sag. Downsides are losing the light into the shop and less aesthetically pleasing but still a build with challenges.

60mm, 25mm, and a 10mm were chosen so I could use just two thicknesses throughout the project (60mm for stiles and top and bottom rails and 25mm for panel, cross bracing and middle rear rail). These dimensions are by no means perfect from a manufacturing perspective as my largest router bit for the housing is 19.7mm so would need to shimmy my fence across a little to complete this. If you feel I can get away with this for the panel, bracing and mid rear rail I'll change to this (and bring down the 60mm accordingly).

Many of the lessons from earlier are still valid, but I have a few queries specific to the new design:

Is 10mm enough for the recess for the tongue and groove panel behind the face? I'm concerned that this might be a little brittle and could be damaged easily if nudged with you know a motorbike or overzealous door opening into parked cars. What sort of vertical and horizontal clearances should I allow for beyond the panel in the housing/plow?

Do I glue the tongue and groove panel components together? I think not for movement but will defer to you on this.

Do I brad nail the panel to the rail at the centre on the back? Or again do we have a movement issue?

For completeness I thought I'd update with the salient measurements

The brickwork opening:
Width: 2285mm
Height: 2135mm

Roughsawn timber used was 100mm x 47mm of which I've planed lightly a face and two edges so lets say like 95mm x 45mm.

Included under "framework" is the first frame to square up the opening which consists of the head, sill and legs and the second frame which is legs and head only.

Excluding any clearances for hinges (which haven't arrived yet) and gaps around the top and between doors each door will have a height of approximately 2000mm and width of 1053mm. I think given this, both stiles and rails will have a 100mm width. This gives an unhoused panel dimension of 852.5mm x 1800mm. Does only 20mm housed make sense? I don't want the housing to be too deep to make the 10mm at the front of the stiles and rails too exposed and weak.

 

[ColeyS1]

That second picture of a plain old t and g door looks so bland compared to the earlier one. Don't glue the t and g, it'll need room to move

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[jpor4180]

I know, I really am disappointed but I don't see what I can do. Hopefully it doesn't sap the fun out of the process. I'm going to dress it up with some neat looking trim, I've been following Finish Carpentry TV on youtube lately and I fancy applying what I've learned from that here. I'm thinking fluted columns and a graceful crown.

My Nan's got a double garage, I'll see if I can convince her to let me build a set of the first design as I've harvested the windows now (which took me way longer than I'll ever admit).

Let me know if you're all still interested in the WIP, I know the end result won't be as interesting but the process may well be.

 

[ColeyS1]

As a bonus though, your new design will get over any drainage issues

Don't groove the boards in the bottom rail.

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