Further adventures in second hand land

[Racers]

You are trying to ware down a hard thing, its likely to ware you down first.

Buy a coarse diamond plate http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dmt-Diamond-Sha ... B0001WP1L0 if you want speed.

Pete

 

[Jacob]

It's the labour I'm trying to avoid! Is there a quicker method people can recommend?

3M Diapad. £5 or so on ebay. Last forever.
I wouldn't bother "truing them up" (pointless waste of a lot of time) but they do need the surface refreshing every now and then - just a few quick swipes will do it and being bendy a 3M Diapad will follow the contours.

 

[memzey]

Cheers Jacob. My only concern is that this stone has a bit of a hollow to it where the previous owner concentrated his/her honing efforts. I really just want to flatten it out so I can control the contours of my sharpening rather than have them dictated to me by the irregular shape of the stone.

Peter; The diamond plate would probably work well but as it costs quite a bit more than a set of replacement stones and I doubt I will have any other use for it I think I will try something else. Thanks for the suggestion though!

 

[Racers]

Makes the sand and elbow grease look attractive doesn't it.



Pete

 

[memzey]

Definitely appealing to my wallet (my elbow is less sure about it though)

 

[worn thumbs]

I have done the job with sharp sand and lots of water on a piece of glass,another fellow I knew preferred grinding paste on glass.It does take time though.it will be worth doing if the shine mentioned has been caused by the stone glazing and needing to have fresh grit exposed.Having cleaned the stone I would recommend using paraffin rather than oil as it allows the stone to cut while providing some resistance to clogging the pores.I know several people who have adopted paraffin and they all say that they can feel the stone cutting more effectively.Makes sense really as oil is intended to reduce friction and you actually need some friction to take the steel away from the blunt edge.

 

[Jacob]

Cheers Jacob. My only concern is that this stone has a bit of a hollow to it where the previous owner concentrated his/her honing efforts. I really just want to flatten it out so I can control the contours of my sharpening rather than have them dictated to me by the irregular shape of the stone. .....

I'd try to get used to the stone as it is (within reason) instead of setting off in pursuit of flatness. You flatten in use, putting more effort into the high points, rather than wasting a lot of effort before you've even begun too sharpen anything.

 

[adrspach]

To be honest with you unless this stone has a sentimental value for you it is not worth truly flattening it. You spend a lot of time and if you use wet/dry paper also money for something what is not difficult to buy as new. before you spend money just try a splash of water on concrete paving slab (watch out as your hone can make it polished and slippery for future use) and try to flatten it on it. If it is not too much out it could do the trick. Some hone dealers I know do use linishers for flattening hones but they are naturals as well as they still are not tru flat afterwards they only get rid of bulk of the damaged surface. Additionaly even good belts wil go fast and new India stone could be cheaper than your new belt.
If you looking to have true flat hone I would suggest to purchase a japanese waterhone something like King which is easy to re flatten and decent to sharpen with you just have to be carefull with pressure especialy on small gauges.
As about what to use with your India I would also go towards kerosene as they do like to clog up. Some of them supposed to be prefilled with some kind of wax/oil which also suppose to lube them but I think is not as effective as I would like.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

I'm not convinced it's an India - compared to the other two, it looks a bit longer and a bit wider. If the others are 8" x 2", then it's an odd size for an India. Also, even a fine India has a definite slight roughness to it when a finger is passed over it - it doesn't feel like glass or marble.

Probably the best way to check it's properties is to sharpen something with it. Try something like a 1/2" chisel. If it takes ages to produce a secondary bevel, it's a fine stone. Also,try putting a secondary bevel on with the fine side of one of the coarser stones, then paring a piece of pine endgrain. Then polish the cutting edge on the orange stone (maybe using the edge to avoid any glazing there may be on the face), and pare the pine endgrain again. That should give a fair indication of the stone's grade.

I think it's no bad idea to try and get it as flat as reasonably practicable. I've never had to do this with an oilstone (if it is an oilstone - might be worth a try with a drop of water and a drop of oil to see which it responds best to), but the method I'd seen reccommended is the one Worn Thumbs mentioned - sharp sand (it must be sharp sand, not builder's sand or beach sand) used on a flat surface with water. Slow, but the stone doesn't look too badly worn, so it may be a quicker job than you think. Once it's flat, take care to use the whole surface so that subsequent wear is as even as possible, and it won't need re-flattening very often.

It would be a good idea to make a box for it if it turns out to be a fine polishing stone. Do the same for one of the combination stones, and you'll be set up with sharpening stones for life!

 

[bugbear]

You flatten in use, putting more effort into the high points,

Interesting theory.

Where do hollowed stones come from, if use causes flattening? Are they made hollow at the factory, and if so, why?

BugBear

 

[G S Haydon]

Looking at it again I think CC is most likely right. However, I'm none the wiser as to what type of stone it could be!

 

[Jacob]

You flatten in use, putting more effort into the high points,

Interesting theory.

Where do hollowed stones come from, if use causes flattening? Are they made hollow at the factory, and if so, why?

BugBear

Good question.
Here are two more:
Why are nearly all the old (used) stones you come across never perfectly flat?
Why are nearly all the old (used) chisels and plane blades also never perfectly flat on the face and have rounded bevels?

Is it that earlier woodworkers had no idea how to do things properly?

Or is it that the modern sharpening obsession with flatness is (almost) completely pointless?

 

[bugbear]

Why are nearly all the old (used) stones you come across never perfectly flat?

"Someone said" that use makes stones flatter, so it's quite a mystery.

There are (as you correctly say) so many hollowed stones out there, and the old catalogues show them being sold flat.

Could it be that use actually hollows them, despite what "someone said"?

Mysteries, mysteries.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

You flatten in use, putting more effort into the high points,

Interesting theory.

Where do hollowed stones come from, if use causes flattening? Are they made hollow at the factory, and if so, why?

BugBear

Good question.
Here are two more:
Why are nearly all the old (used) stones you come across never perfectly flat?
Why are nearly all the old (used) chisels and plane blades also never perfectly flat on the face and have rounded bevels?

Is it that earlier woodworkers had no idea how to do things properly?

Or is it that the modern sharpening obsession with flatness is (almost) completely pointless?

In any walk of life, there are always some who take great pride in what they do; won't allow sub-standard work, go the extra mile when extra hours are required to finish something properly, look after their tools and equipment to a very high standard, and always do their best. There are some who are capable of the best work, but sometimes cut corners, and there are some who can't really be bothered.

'The books' usually set out best practice. The books usually tell the worker to keep their sharpening stones flat and in good condition. Not everybody followed best practice.

I'm not sure that all the old honing stones are hollowed. I've seen plenty that appear in better condition than that.

Paul Sellers wrote several blogs about hollowed oilstones a couple of months ago; he'd bought some real shockers off Ebay (I went looking for them, out of interest, and couldn't find many, though to be fair I didn't search very long and hard. However, there seemed to be more in decent, including new and boxed, condition than shockers.) At the end of his 'investigation', he didn't seem to reach any sort of convincing conclusion, except that some people had hollowed stones and their tools might well have fitted their stones. It seemed pertinent that he now uses (nice, flat) diamond plates for his sharpening, though.

I really don't think there's a 'right' answer; for me, best practice is keeping sharpening stones pretty flat, but some people obviosly get by with out-of-flat ones. Good luck to them, but I'll stick with flat - for me, it just makes life easier in the end.

 

[Jacob]

Why are nearly all the old (used) stones you come across never perfectly flat?

"Someone said" that use makes stones flatter, so it's quite a mystery.

There are (as you correctly say) so many hollowed stones out there, and the old catalogues show them being sold flat.

Could it be that use actually hollows them, despite what "someone said"?

Mysteries, mysteries.

BugBear

I do't think you'll get it but I'll attempt to explain.
It goes like this:
1 If you use a stone casually in the ordinary way it starts flat but tends to get hollowed.
2 Then as you use it you tend to spend more time and effort on the high points, as though flattening it.
3 The result usually is a steady state of fixed hollowness to suit yourself and your tools.
4 Sometimes the corrective effort results in a convexity, but that's OK you can work it out (or work with it)
and so on, and on.

The one thing to avoid is to stupidly waste effort, time and stone deliberately flattening it, other than by sharpening with it.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

It begs the question, 'why are they manufactured flat' if flatness is unnecessary? It would take a lot of effort and extra expense to make a stone truly flat, and in modern days, any unnecessary manufacturing process would be omitted if there was no real benefit.

As usual, Jacob is making the argument that does not exist and then telling us how ridiculous it is. No one is obsessed with flatness in their tools, but sharpening the flat side of a tool is more easily done with a flat stone, so introducing flatness to the tool is an inevitable and desirable consequence, not a goal. We could all make our tools extremely sharp with double bevels, like carvers skews, but bench chisels would be almost useless and uncontrollable for their intended purpose and cap irons could not be fitted to plane irons.

Mike.

 

[memzey]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

CC; I have actually sharpened a number of edges with it and it produces a wickedly sharp edge. I sorted out the old number 5 shown on the first page of this post and went through rough, medium then fine grits starting with a combination stone and ending with the funny coloured number we are discussing now before a quick strop on a piece of leather glued to some wood. I didn't bother with any back bevels or any other complexities. Once I'd put it back together and dialled it in it consistently produced shavings like the ones below:

I'm sure many of you would aim for better but for me, bearing in mind that this is the first bench plane I have ever worked, I'm pretty pleased with those results. I havent taken any WIP pics as I didn't do any beautifying of the tool just getting it working to my satisfaction. I think if the shavings are fine enough to read through that's probably ok for an amateur of my (poor) level of skill.

With regards to the flatness of the stone I think I'm leaning towards Jacob's thinking. It's flat enough (ish), I'm getting good results and I'm as likely to make it worse as better by further interference. As I sharpen free-hand I can compensate for the hollow and control which parts of the stone I use hopefully managing the convexity over time. if there was a quick, cheap and easy way of flattening it I probably would do so but as there doesn't appear to be I shall carry on using it as is.

 

[G S Haydon]

Great results memzey! Mike, a cap iron can fit irons that are not flat. Sure a flat stone is fine but it's not difficult to make a cap iron fit a less than perfect iron.

 

[AndyT]

Nice one Memzey. Results like that are what matter so if you are getting them you must be doing it right.

 

[Trafalgar]

Mind the ends and the corners and the middle will take care of itself. Maurice Fraser in his sharpening with oilstones video put it best -- use the whole stone, that's what you paid for. Case the stone with run-off blocks at the end that allow to use the stone all the way to the ends.

Stones with end to end grooves were intentional -- for gouges and such. When one of these is found the opposing side will often be found to be dead flat. A stone with a swale in the middle not so much, not a best practice as CC points out. Just because these exist doesn't mean they are a goal.

Memzey -- your results are fine. There is no need to add any additional complexities, as you've discovered quite naturally. If your stone has a swale in the middle you can back off a burr, but do it with short strokes. If you back off by going end-to-end through the swale you will not like what will naturally result over time.

Old knife-edge tools certainly exist, where bevels of some degree or another meet at the cutting edge rather than a bevel meeting a flat face. These can be seen on old chisels and plane irons. Again, not necessarily a goal to strive for. The standard is still a bevel of a suitable degree meeting a flat face at the cutting edge, except for carving tools where ease and a graceful exit from a cut are as important as absolute sharpness. It does no good to get into a cut beautifully and not be able to get out of it at an exact point without making a wreck of things. This isn't an issue with straight bench planing and in the majority of simple paring cuts to layout lines as in cabinetmaking.

Treat the flat face of a tool as a playground for experimentation at your own risk. I hope you'll avoid it altogether. You'll rarely if ever be disappointed with 'flat and polished' as so many craftsman/writers have emphasized over the last 150 years or so.