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<sigh> I wasn't suggesting anyone was being childish - I was just trying to say the same boring thing about not getting political in a different way to amuse my numbed brain.

My post was in particular response to Alan's post, which was starting to go from legitimate POV's to a comment that could easily kick off something less desirable. The aim is to nip this stuff in the bud before it gets political and hope you all will take the hint and tread with care. If anyone's already crossed the line before a Mod can give that hint then you'll know by the screams and collateral damage to the thread... :wink:

Anyway, what I should have posted, and will boringly do so every time henceforth, is the following:
There is a danger that this thread is veering into territory that involves politics which could all too easily result in argument and a breakdown in the harmony of this forum. Please will all posters take care in their posts to avoid this happening or the moderators will have to take steps. Thank you for your cooperation.

A moderator.
Boring, ain't it? :roll:

Cheers, Alf
 
Alf...snip...[quote:3lx6vtcg said:
There is a danger that this thread is veering into territory that involves politics which could all too easily result in argument and a breakdown in the harmony of this forum. Please will all posters take care in their posts to avoid this happening or the moderators will have to take steps. Thank you for your cooperation.

A moderator.
Boring, ain't it? :roll:

Cheers, Alf[/quote]

Yep it is. Have you been a spin doctor in a former life Alice? the jargon smacks of former civil service training. (Chas. ex CS)
 
Hi All,

I was not being political at all. In fact I thought that by tarring every political party with the same brush I was being apolitical. That is non-political.

However, to prevent ALF from getting bored, I will try to refrain in future.

I used the UK party names merely because I did not know what the equivalent was in each EU country, the US, Japan etc etc.

I hope that the main point of smaller government, reduced taxation and more efficiency from governments was OK.

regards
Alan
 
Alf,
Thanks for reply.

We will just have to disagree then.

I think that we are in danger of becoming overly sensitive and far to PC in approach.

I will comply

regards

alan
 
If we can't have a discussion on these issues on 'off-topic' then where can we air any views, contentious or otherwise?

Or is it the 'general' consensus that any strongly held views are too 'dangerous' and, as Alan suggests, too non-PC?

If the latter reason then that is, IMHO, a great shame. What happened to 'freedom of speech'?

Roger
 
Roger Sinden":3q3hgcw5 said:
If we can't have a discussion on these issues on 'off-topic' then where can we air any views, contentious or otherwise?

Or is it the 'general' consensus that any strongly held views are too 'dangerous' and, as Alan suggests, too non-PC?

If the latter reason then that is, IMHO, a great shame. What happened to 'freedom of speech'?

Roger

I am with Roger here, just as long as it is kept in the realms of generalizations and across international divides type comparisons another persons views do not offend me.

I for one feel much better after a "Putting the world to rights" session, be it with friends or a complete stranger, as long as it is done with respect for the other persons views.

Party Politics is another matter as is Religion, where IMOHO the cause is invariably spoilt completely by the controlling body and is buried in so much spin as to be beyond cool and calm discussion unless instantaneous qualification/clarification of views is available.
 
I have a feeling that if
The remainder is tax going to that well known puritanical, thief Gordon Brown in the Treasury.
had been written as
The remainder is tax going to the treasury.
then the mod hat wouldn't have appeared. :-k

Anyway, much as we might not like it there is an argument for high tax on fossil fuel as an attempt to reduce it's consumption as it is believed to be a major cause of global warming.
It's just a shame there's no readily available viable alternative in the form of a non-polluting engine or even public transport (not that you're likely to be able to take your auction-bargain-wood on the bus even if there was a bus :wink:).

Pete (ducking for cover)
 
cambournepete":vfwnne0v said:
Anyway, much as we might not like it there is an argument for high tax on fossil fuel as an attempt to reduce it's consumption as it is believed to be a major cause of global warming.

Sadly that will only work when ALL countries adopt the same policy. Given the lack of buy-in to Kyoto by some countries that are both high in fuel consumption per capita and also very low in fuel tax, then I think the future is bleak.

Other significant contributors are jet aircraft. Do we as a society really need all those cheap flights?

How about a global ban on advertising? I think that that would yield huge benefits in reducing the 'wanna have it' mantra.

Perhaps fruit and vegetables should have little stickers on them saying ' this apple has only travelled 20 miles from orchard to store'.

Many potential ways to reduce consumption but most, if not all, too bitter a pill for the majority of society to swallow and/or politicians to advocate
 
I'm looking forward to the day when our vehicles are powered by fuel cells and our electricity comes from fission. Does anyone know how close these experimental technologies are to becoming practical realities?

Gill
 
Gill,
I think you mean fusion rather than fission..

This quibble aside, I think it won't happen in the next 100 years.

1. Fuel cells.

Nice idea but the cost of implementation is so high that almost anything else beats it to the post. First there is the cost of design, construction and maintenance of the powerplant/vehicle itself as well as the trade-offs in packaging (ie how much space the passengers have at their disposal). Then there is the cost of the infrastructure - the thing still needs fuel (typically hydrogen or methanol) that have to be piped or trucked around the country and put in your car - virtually none of the present infrastructure allows for it.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch.. The "traditional" petrol engine gets evermore efficient and can deliver ample power with almost no noxious emissions at a fraction of the price for these other technologies.

2. Fusion.

Demonstrated in the lab but virtually nothing more. It is mostly clean, producing unreactive helium as a waste but there is also the continual production of small amounts of tritium - a form of hydrogen- that ain't so great and which would restrict the unrestrained growth of fusion power.

Neither of these technologies will make a haporth of difference to anyone alive today - except for the distortionary effects of large scale government intervention - my prediction!
 
Hi Chris

You're right, I meant 'fission' :oops: . I'm sure I heard a radio interview recently in which the head of Iter said that fission could be available within 30 years. Perhaps I mis-heard him.

Oil isn't going to last forever, though. We need some sort of viable alternative and we need it quickly.

Gill
 
Fusion is a way off. They've just agreed to start building the first commercially viable sized pilot reactor, but they are still having difficulties in making it pay off, I think. It takes an awful lot of electricity to keep the plasma suspended in the torus and not melting its way through the reactor walls.

We'll need at least another generation of dirty old fission, I think, unfortunately

Fuel cells are here already, in the form of London buses, they seem to be piloting at least one because I've seen it many times. Eerily silent, but good to see the white water vapour exhaust. Big infrastructure changes required to roll it out more widely though, as Chris said.
 
Anyway, much as we might not like it there is an argument for high tax on fossil fuel as an attempt to reduce it's consumption as it is believed to be a major cause of global warming.
Sadly that will only work when ALL countries adopt the same policy. Given the lack of buy-in to Kyoto by some countries that are both high in fuel consumption per capita and also very low in fuel tax, then I think the future is bleak.
Ok, is this discussion about high costs of fuel, or about the ecological impacts of fuel, or both?

Seems it started out as fuel costs. I guess discussions are dynamic that way.

Concerning reducing consumption, that'll only happen when there is a viable alternative, regardless of which country is being discussed, or slammed. Tax never really has reduced consumption, nor is it (reducing consumption) really a government's reason for its high taxation of fuels. That, I believe, is too altruistic of a country's governing body's motivations.

As regards fuel costs themselves, every country has its own mixture of reasons the cost is so high. Some countries rely more on imported fuel than others. This affects cost greatly. Also, many/most of the oil producing countries have a stranglehold on its cost. Most of those countries' own residents cannot afford fuel either.

The relatively few "families" that control oil are unbelievably wealthy, all the while their own countrymen do without certain things we all take for granted.

It is not so, though, in every oil-producing country. Argentina for example has laws ensuring their country's inhabitants are not gouged for fuel costs. Mere pennies on the gallon (in comparison to even the US). Still below 20 cents US a gallon last time I bothered to look (which was a little while ago). Should they be penalized? Should they join some multi-national effort to reduce something that may have an effect on global warming and raise their taxes against their own people in order to reduce consumption? Or is this "solution" only for the wealthier nations to do?

The US produces a lot of its own oil. Much of it goes into reserves to cushion rises and production issues, if the leaders that be choose to dip into them, which they do from time to time.

The real issue regarding costs is, with each country paying about the same for crude oil, why is it that some people pay so much at the pump? It was stated early in the thread. Taxes mainly. Which gets me full circle in this response.

It would be good to determine what each of our own country's motives are for the taxes before we point the finger at other countries and declare they are a global "problem."

Taxes penalize the least able to pay them. Taxes are rarely a solution to any problem. Taxes to lessen consumption will never work in the larger scheme of things. It may lessen how much you or I drive for personal reasons. It will only increase the cost of living in every other area of living. Again, this will hurt most those that cannot afford it.

Ok, now I'll go away. I should stick more to the really important things in life. Things like, should I cut pins first, or tails?

Mike
 
MikeW":27hzh0qv said:
Ok, is this discussion about high costs of fuel, or about the ecological impacts of fuel, or both?

Seems it started out as fuel costs. I guess discussions are dynamic that way.

Just so long as the discussion doesn't turn to politics again, Mike
Tin+hat+smiley.gif
;) .

Gill
 
Just so long as the discussion doesn't turn to politics again, Mike
Think I kept it fairly clean of that arena. At least as much as I could and still reply. But that'll be all I have to say on it anyway.

It's more worthwhile for me to just go measure my saws and decide how big I want to make a saw till. And if I want drawers in it to hold the sets and files. Decisions, decisions.
 
Nice one, Travis. :lol: :lol:

Unfortunately, over here the cost of (highly taxed) fuel is such that we have no alternative but to eat the empty, skinny pig! :cry: Otherwise, how would we afford to fill our 'shops with ww machinery and buy all the latest L/N and L/V and other kit? :?

I think, anyway, it's just in the nature of us Brits to moan about the cost of fuel, without being prepared to do anything positive about conserving it. Just watch them out there - foot hard down to get past at all costs (when I'm driving at the prevailing speed limit), only to use up a load of tyre rubber braking hard just up the road to stop at the next set of t/lights. Then scream away from the lights, usually on the red/amber before they actually change to green, off he goes again. If everybody were to drive economically and remove the 'competition' from their efforts there would be a significant saving in vehicle fuel usage. It amazes me how people moan about the high cost of fuel, fill their tank then seem to try to waste the stuff as quickly as they can!

Not trying to be 'holier than thou' here - just how it seems to me to generally be. And, yes, I do like driving fast in the right place at the right time (best place to do that being on 'N' and 'D' roads deep in the French countryside on a two-wheeler). :wink:

Cheers,

Trev.
 
Would we not be better to reduce the cost of fuel, reduce taxes on non efficient combustion engine vehicles and give air flights away with a packet of cornflakes? As a result the oil reserves will all used much quicker and only then will viable alternatives be seriously developed.

The downside of course is the affects on the environment - but again this will not be taken seriously until there is no environment left.

ever so slightly cynical Andy
 
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