Front door - advice on material, gotchas (outward opening?)

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matthew

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Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk
Further to another recent thread on front doors, I'm also embarking on one. It will be quite modern, thematically similar to my recent garage door below, although with full height glazing and thinner strips to let more light in.

But for the front, I need to think a bit more carefully about construction; certainly not obviously made of plywood and screws from the inside :p but also eg:

  • What kind of wood is good/readily available (given that it will oiled (or possibly lacquered) rather than painted)? I can use oak, but but might prefer a darker, denser tropical hardwood
  • What are 'standard' (or recommended/effective) dimensions for thickness; and size of door frame, etc - eg my current (softwood) door has approx 100mm L/R and 150mm top - seems overkill for a hardwood replacement (I'm thinking eg 75mm/100mm?)
  • How best to weatherproof it - seals etc - given that I'm likely to make it open outwards (possibly controversial?)

I realise it sounds a bit vague - but as it's my first time to do one, any general practical dos/don'ts much appreciated!

cedar-garage-door-1.jpg

cedar-garage-door-6.jpg
 
Just to say that I really like the design of your workshop door above. Contemporary look, security of floor to ceiling timbers and a (probably) useful amount of light where normally you would have none. Insulation too i'll guess. If I can adapt the idea to a 4 section concertina style I may look to steal some of your ideas to replace a horrid up and over door. If I copied it exactly, the open garage door would block the front door to the house !
You absolutely need a front door that matches / complements this.
 
Sideways":3i47aceu said:
Just to say that I really like the design of your workshop door above.
You absolutely need a front door that matches / complements this.

Many thanks! I did actually consider a bi-fold, but determined it wasn't really necessary in this case, so it made it a lot simpler - but would be interested to see if you try it! As you suggest, it is insulated (and double glazed) and it gives quite a lot of extra light (there are a couple more pics on my gallery, link in my signature). Come winter, I will find out how much warmer it is is than the old up-and-over.

Overall it works very well, but construction is a bit rough-and-ready; the front door needs to look better inside and the cedar isn't a good fit - it looks great but is very soft and damages easily. So definitely needs a bit more attention to detail - and the external carpentry know-how that I don't yet have...
 
Big heavy iroko doors designed for security most importantly,
with possible small windows double glazed with kumiko pattern slotted in :D
Sorry, cant be of much help just think you would miss the light if it were gone.
 
I would avoid Oak on exterior joinery unless it is a very high-grade Oak or stave core construction. I've seen people make the mistake of putting in solid Oak doors and windows because some ***** told them it was the best they could get and a year down the line the house is being ripped apart by the movement of the doors and windows. Plus it isn't cheap in the first place.

There are basically 4 readily available, reputable and relatively inexpensive "tropical" hardwoods to choose from: Sapele, Idigbo, Utile, and Iroko. All these timbers are used very commonly in exterior joinery and each has its upsides and downsides. It would be best to look into these and see which one would suit you best.

On my own Doors and frames, I use a 95mm x 70mm frame (Jambs and Head) and the Cill is 95mm x Whatever thickness the cill needs to be to match or be above the interior floor, With a 5/8 inch mortice into the head and cill of the frame. The frame rebate size is 15mm x 60mm which allows for a 55mm thickness door and 5mm allowance for a draft seal. The frames are double draft sealed with Aquamac 21 and 124 seals, the 124 seal sits between the door and the seat of the frame, the seal pokes out 15mm from the groove hence why it is a 15mm depth rebate. The 21 seal sits 9mm above the 124 seal in the rebate and mostly just gives the door the high quality "Fwwf" sound when you open and close the door. On external opening doors, I like to run a capillary groove 8mm off the front edge of the rebate which stops water from tracking from the head and working its way around the frame onto the seals. On the cill of an externally opening door, I have a 15mm x 60mm rebate which has a 9-degree bevel running from the seat to the outside edge of the frame. On the seat of the rebate, I use an aquamac 21 seal in the face of the seat instead of a 124 in grooved into the bevel because I believe the groove in the cill would allow water to sit in the groove and rot out the tenons, which I have seen happen.

With the actual door, the door you're after is the classic Pattern 10 door with full glazing. It's pretty much the simplest door you could possibly make aside from a ledged door. On my doors, I use 95mm x 55mm stiles and top rail, 200mm x 55mm bottom rail. On the door, I use a 15mm x 41mm rebate which allows for a 24mm double glazed unit and a 15mm bead and a 2mm step between the face of the door and the bead, which I believe looks nicer than a flush bead. I also use a 5/8 inch mortice in the stiles in line with the seat of the 41mm rebate. I typically put a moulding on the door and frame but you can do them square just to make things easier. You can plant on your strips right onto the door like you have done with the garage doors.

It's worth taking into account what you wish to use to lock the door before you start getting to far into the project as it's easier to make adjustments to allow for it before you actually start making the door rather than after it's made. Personally, I would use a multi-point style locking mechanism like the Tornado or other systems on a 45mm backset. They not only add a bit of extra security but do help to prevent the door from twisting when closed and keep the door tight against the draft seal unlike the single point locks such as the 5 lever locks and so on.

If you have any other questions please ask and if you want any cross sections drawn up of the profiles I use I'd be happy to do so.
 
Trevanion":2ui0vmzm said:
... epic post ...

Hmm... I suspect you have done this before...

Really, though, that's amazing information - exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping to find out. Hugely appreciated, many thanks! Taken me a while to process it but think I mainly have it - noted:

  • Choice of wood - will avoid oak, iroko was my preference, I like the colour. Maybe worth considering balau? I used decking in it a few years ago and it's very dense, stable.
  • Locks also - I was indeed thinking of a multipoint lock - and I do tend to get hardware for any project before cutting any wood - makes it much easier to plan in advance
  • Construction - now I know what a Pattern 10 is :) Although I will likely have 1 or 2 horizontal mullions , to help keep the cladding strips straight (likely narrower here, about 20mm - don't trust them to stay straight across 2m)

And a few further queries, if I may...

  • If you do get a chance, a cross-section would be useful to see, I'm not 100% picturing the capillary groove and the seals - I actually used a 21 seal on the garage door but I'm not quite sure how you use both together?
  • Do you use any specific seal for the double glazed unit? On the garage I used dry glaze tape which seems fine - but not fully weather tested yet.
  • I'm likely to forego a standard protruding cill as such, so I can have the cladding overlap the bottom of the frame when the door is closed (as it does the frame head on the garage door). Suspect this is not ideal, but I will bevel the seat of the rebate as suggested - can you think of any other issues this may cause?

Again, huge thanks for taking the time to reply with such invaluable info & experience!
 
matthew":2061zle9 said:
Do you use any specific seal for the double glazed unit? On the garage I used dry glaze tape which seems fine - but not fully weather tested yet.

I personally use either Hodgson's Silfix U9 or Everbuild 450 silicone as both state that they are safe to use with the perimeter of double glazed units. Some silicones can damage the sealing of a DG unit and what you end up with is the black sealant running down the inside of the unit after the sealant has reacted with the silicone. I've seen people make the expensive mistake of using the high/mid-modulus on DG units, having them fail and then having to pay to replace the glass out of their own pocket. So I tend to stick to what I know works. I have used the dry glaze tape but only on the self-cleaning glass as you cannot use silicones on that type of glass, some people prefer the tape on all glazing work but I find it's a much sharper and cleaner looking job done with silicone. There's no real comparison of the two, they both have their upsides and downsides. It's really down to personal preference.

matthew":2061zle9 said:
I'm likely to forego a standard protruding cill as such, so I can have the cladding overlap the bottom of the frame when the door is closed (as it does the frame head on the garage door). Suspect this is not ideal, but I will bevel the seat of the rebate as suggested - can you think of any other issues this may cause?

I don't use protruding cills unless it's specified because it just adds extra hassle into the work. There are no real repercussions for not having it protruding past the rest of the frame, So yes, you don't need to have it protruding.

matthew":2061zle9 said:
If you do get a chance, a cross-section would be useful to see, I'm not 100% picturing the capillary groove and the seals - I actually used a 21 seal on the garage door but I'm not quite sure how you use both together?

If I get a bit of time after work tomorrow I'll draw some up for you.
 
I think Iroko would be a good choice.

Are you making the vertical laths removable, just thinking for cleaning glass and re oiling laths?

The two main problems with outward opening front doors...

1. The unsuspecting person who has just knocked on door gets a shock when they have to suddenly step back to avoid being knocked over.

2. Keep hold of the door when it is open because if (when) the wind catches it you will be making another! You can get restrictors to stop this but generally not pretty.

Not knocking your ideas, think the garage doors look awesome.

Doug
 
Doug71":1hed7fkn said:
The two main problems with outward opening front doors...
Where I live (Finland) all exterior doors open outwards. I don't know why this is. Perhaps it is so any snow against the door is pushed away rather than dragged inside, but there are other advantages that may account for it. Anyway, it doesn't seem to cause any serious issues and I don't see any reason why inward or outward opening is inherently better. I would choose whichever best suits the individual case.
 
Doug71":ooc1l6p0 said:
Are you making the vertical laths removable, just thinking for cleaning glass and re oiling laths?

Good question... for the garage, they screwed in from the inside, mainly so as to be easily replaceable if required - the cedar is very durable against the weather, but also very soft, so easily damaged. If I ever needed to clean it, my plan would be to remove the glass from the inside - the beads are screwed on.

The front door cladding will be eg iroko and although I could screw (and plug) from inside again, in this case I'll probably dowel/biscuit and glue - with the same plan for cleaning (or at least oiling). My hope is that the cladding protects the glass a little, and any dust shouldn't be too visible - so it shouldn't be a frequent job.

Doug71":ooc1l6p0 said:
The two main problems with outward opening front doors...
Just4Fun":ooc1l6p0 said:
Where I live (Finland) all exterior doors open outwards. I don't know why this is. Perhaps it is so any snow against the door is pushed away rather than dragged inside, but there are other advantages that may account for it. Anyway, it doesn't seem to cause any serious issues and I don't see any reason why inward or outward opening is inherently better. I would choose whichever best suits the individual case.

I did search quite a bit on this subject and didn't take the decision lightly, because here in the UK we are all so used to inward opening doors. I also read outward opening is standard in Scandinavia - and the same in Japan where my wife is from, who is baffled by ours here! In this case, it opens into a small hall which will be getting some storage - so space is a premium, hence the decision.
 
matthew":1xvssowp said:
If you do get a chance, a cross-section would be useful to see, I'm not 100% picturing the capillary groove and the seals - I actually used a 21 seal on the garage door but I'm not quite sure how you use both together?

Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to this, I've been rather busy but I did manage to scrape 20 minutes to draw up some (messy) cross sections.

Please excuse the handwriting, calligraphy was never my strong suit.

Jamb and head cross sections are identical, the head would have a mortice and the jambs would have tenons.
IMG_0152.JPG


Cill cross section, the 70mm height measurement is adjustable to whatever you're internal floor height is, whether it's 45mm, 105mm or anything else.
IMG_0151.JPG


This is a photo of how the seals work, minus the capillary groove as this is an internally opening door and it isn't needed.
IMG_0147.JPG


If you've got anymore questions feel free to ask.
 

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Trevanion":2qfervl5 said:
Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to this, I've been rather busy but I did manage to scrape 20 minutes to draw up some (messy) cross sections.

Wow - huge thanks again these pics! These profiles are so helpful, it's very appreciated. Between your initial reply and these pics, I now have a much better idea of where/how to start. And perfect timing - I decided on Iroko, which I'm getting delivered tomorrow.

Unsure how long this will take - but will post some pics when done. But meantime, again having the benefit of your experience is a significant kickstart :)
 
matthew":2c5z9fvv said:
I decided on Iroko, which I'm getting delivered tomorrow.

Iroko's a very good wood if you want something to last as it's very oily but it does have some drawbacks.

I'm sure you already know but always wear a mask when working Iroko. I'm not one for following strict PPE guidelines but it is probably one of the worst woods for getting in your throat and making you hack and cough like a chain smoker. And apparently, you can pass out if you breathe too much of it. Also getting the dust in your eyes isn't pleasant I can assure you, you'll be itching them for hours!

It machines alright except where you get interlocking grain which you get with most other timbers anyway but it's especially prevalent in Iroko. What most people won't tell you though is to watch out for Sandstone/Calcite deposits in the timber, It somehow gets grown into the tree and you can encounter it when machining. It is rare but I have seen it quite a bit, it'll wreck any blades it goes up against. I've got a pice somewhere with the Calcite in it as a sort of sample piece so I'll dig it up and take a picture for you when I get a chance.

It can be troublesome to finish. because of the oiliness of the timber, paint does have trouble sticking to the timber and needs to be degreased thoroughly before painting and ideally use aluminium primer. That doesn't really apply to you though because I believe you're using a stain/clear finish. I personally use Sikkens Cetol Filter 7 Plus in a Dark oak colour on Iroko as it works well with the timber and looks great for a long time but you could use pretty much anything oil/solvent based. I wouldn't trust anything water based near it.

I use polyurethane glue on Iroko and don't get much trouble glueing I have been told that it is wise to de-grease before glueing up with say, Cascamite or PVA as it may not stick as well because of the oily nature of the timber.

Last note, Iroko is an absolute nightmare when it comes to twisting. Mostly due to short grain and poor craftsmanship though as with any timber, but Iroko has a tendency to twist extremely when given a chance. I've seen doors that have bowed over 15mm (touching the seat top and bottom but 15mm gap in the centre). But when it's been sawn properly straight and is fairly straight grain it's quite stable.
 
Trevanion":7c53y3og said:
I'm sure you already know but always wear a mask when working Iroko.

Aha, good point. I've actually used Iroko for furniture, but it was a small piece, nowhere near the amount I'll be machining for this door - so am nudged to replace filters on my dust mask.

Noted also re twisting - I've overordered quite a bit so hopefully will have a choice of pieces; some elements of the design are not finalised yet so I'll bear that in mind too (I'll have a substantial mullion and will wedge or pin the tenons). Thought about Sapele - which may be straighter? - but it will have a clear finish and the colour of Iroko was closer to what I was after.

Thanks also for tips on glue and finish. I usually use titebond 3 for everything but since its external, I'll probably go with your suggestion of polyurethane - and remember to wear gloves after the last time I used it! Finish-wise I'm likely to use Osmo UV protection oil - I used it on some cedar fencing 3 years ago and it hasn't greyed at all, so should hopefully work as well for the Iroko.

Again, many thanks for the advice! :)
 
My mother had a house built with iroko stairs, floors, skirtings, windows and doors - so I have some experience of iroko. If you use iroko don't use stuff that has been newly sawn down - it'll look OK but some will stay perfectly straight and flat, some will go walkabout. If you can, try to choose stuff with the grain running the same way - (difficult, I know) . She had meeting rails on sashes that stayed straight, rails that bowed in same direction ...... fine ... rails that bowed away from each other so the wind whistled through and ones that bowed together so they clashed and and the windows wouldn't shut. It's spiral grained like elm and sapele.
 
"I would avoid Oak on exterior joinery unless it is a very high-grade Oak or stave core construction. I've seen people make the mistake of putting in solid Oak doors and windows because some ***** told them it was the best they could get and a year down the line the house is being ripped apart by the movement of the doors and windows."

A slight exaggeration there. :)
 
dzj":2tc131of said:
"I would avoid Oak on exterior joinery unless it is a very high-grade Oak or stave core construction. I've seen people make the mistake of putting in solid Oak doors and windows because some ***** told them it was the best they could get and a year down the line the house is being ripped apart by the movement of the doors and windows."

A slight exaggeration there. :)
Think he must be talking about green oak lol

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
dzj":26ybm0dp said:
A slight exaggeration there. :)

The guy I get my glass off had them put in his house by a local "top quality" joinery company. He was sold a load of pollocks about being the absolute best material you could have and he had all his stormproof windows, doors and bi-folders made in the stuff. I've been in the place myself and the cracks around the doors and windows are horrendous, talking around 1/2" gap in some places. It's definitely the joinery that's done it, as it was fine before they were put in. Couldn't tell you whether it was green oak or regular oak, most probably green as that's what Grand Designs is always promoting.
 
Green oak windows and doors- well OK then- lol

Just ordered this in for windows and doors.
8c96e07cf6c9be90bc785ef1987d51cf.jpg

Probably too late to return it now !

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
 
Trevanion":1v8dtgwe said:
It's definitely the joinery that's done it, as it was fine before they were put in.

Note to self: if it requires a hammer to get it into place, it's probably too tight :|

Rule of thumb for timber doors/windows - 2/3mm play all round?
 
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