Front-and-back or side-to-side?

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Very recently Harrelson Stanley began marketing his new blade honing guide, the Sharp Skate, which emphasizes his side shapening strategy. That is, the guide appears to be designed to move sideways rather than fore and aft, as do more traditional guides, such as the LV and Eclipse.

http://blip.tv/file/274859

I do not believe that side sharpening is anything new - for years before I heard of Harrelson I would do it this way when freehanding thin Stanley blades and, espectially, small blades such as those for the #79 side rabbet plane. This method provided more stability, and less rocking and rounding of the bevel.

In the past year I have been returning increasingly to freehand sharpening. The honing guides are used less and less. And so I have been thinking about what I do here - not just in how I hold a blade, but also about the effect of the stone on the edge. Where I previously just considered the side sharpening method as a way of making the process easier, I now am thinking about the effect that the different methods have on the edge.

I have not seen Harrelson's video - I guess I should because I am sure that he would have discussed these issues. However, I don't really want to buy the DVD just to answer the question.

The question that I would like to answer is whether side sharpening reduces the striations across the leading edge and, if so, whether this promotes a stronger and smoother (=sharper) edge?

It occurred to me, as I stood honing a blade this afternoon (I am currently using Shaptons 1000, 5000 and 8000) that a "Figure 8" movement involves both a front-and-back as well as a side-to-side direction. I wondered if this is a reason why this method had become the standard (but I do not recall anyone saying that this was the reason for it).

Your thoughts on all of the above?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Paul Chapman]

That's a very interesting jig, Derek, with some nice features. I like the grooves in the clamping bar - looks like a good idea. I have no particular opinions on the side sharpening method, having never tried it. However, I find all jigs have some good points and some not so good. The main disadvantage with the Harrelson Stanley jig, from my point of view, is that it doesn't allow the blade to project very far from the jig. A short projection is clearly necessary if you are going to use the side sharpening method, otherwise you would need a very wide stone. However, if you flip over the blade with it in the jig to wipe off the wire edge, you don't have much length of blade to rest on the stone to ensure you keep it flat.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Inspector]

The question that I would like to answer is whether side sharpening reduces the striations across the leading edge and, if so, whether this promotes a stronger and smoother (=sharper) edge?

It occurred to me, as I stood honing a blade this afternoon (I am currently using Shaptons 1000, 5000 and 8000) that a "Figure 8" movement involves both a front-and-back as well as a side-to-side direction. I wondered if this is a reason why this method had become the standard (but I do not recall anyone saying that this was the reason for it).

Your thoughts on all of the above?

Regards from Perth

Derek

If the edge produced by the front to back movement is believed to produce a jagged edge for a given grit size that is weak and rough. Then wouldn't the side to side method have the theoretical potential to leave a scratch running across the blade just behind the edge that could break off completely? :? (Chucking theory aside and being practical.) As long as a sharp edge is achieved quickly then does it matter how it is achieved?

When I was learning to be an Aircraft Mechanic, we were taught to lap valve covers etc., using the "Figure 8" motion. My instructors said it reduced the rocking movement of the hand when going front to back and uneven metal removal from circular motion (hard to maintain even pressure throughout the loops), ensuring a flatter surface. Whether the same applies when sharpening or if it's just to use more of the stone surface to even the wear is part off the debate.

For what it's worth. I hollow grind (8") and freehand on water stones (oil stones for narrow blades) with whatever motion suits the tool being sharpened.

I wonder who will be the first to try that little jig on their belt sander? And if they do, how long will the little wheels last? :shock:

 

[Anonymous]

snip
Your thoughts on all of the above?
snip

Hmm, another jig with brass knobs!
My thoughts on the above are that sideways, to&fro, figure of eight, or any other pattern are much easy free-hand, and that a jig just makes it more difficult. So; yes to sideways but don't bother with a jig.
Of course if the blade is wider than the stone, you have to do sideways (or diagonal) which most patterns of jig don't allow.
The reason for doing varied patterns is, for me, more about evening out wear on the stone, although a hollow stone is very handy for cambered blades. I discovered this recently when I flattened my old stone and now find a camber quite difficult. Previously it had been really easy.
IMHO the reason why the honing jig is so often being re-designed or "improved" is that the whole idea is flawed to begin with and the search for the ideal jig is a lost cause.

cheers
Jacob

 

[David C]

Derek,
The striations will be the same magnitude, just different direction.

I have always imagined that square to the edge, gave a stronger cutting edge at the tip than parallel to the edge.

My logic comes from the following; If one wishes to fracture hard metal one simply scores the surface and whacks it with a hammer.

Therefore square seems better to me.

Mind you Harrellson goes down to half micron so his striations will be very small! His liking for the new guide has a different logic which I can't remember.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

Being a COLLECTOR of honing guides, as well as a user, there is one in the post to me.

 

[newt]

Trend do a sideways sharpening system.

 

[Pekka Huhta]

A friend on a local forum here described so thorough sharpening methods that I could not find the sense in going through so much trouble with a woodworking tool, even if I like sharpening myself and get pretty good results when I get to the finer tools.

It turned out that he had to sharpen the blades for a microtome, a "plane" which is used for planing microscopically thin shavings for looking the microscopic structures of wood.

He had these theorems about the optimal sharpness, sharpening directions and all other microstructure things. I did not believe (or thought it was irrelevant), but I remember that when I was studying Wood Technology at the local university, no-one seemed to get the blades for the microtome sharp enough. At that time I was a woodworker - but quite ignorant one - so the finesses of sharpening weren't that familiar to me. A three µm end-grain shaving was not considered woodwork :wink:

So I guess that he had a point there, but only if you are sharpening a blade for a microtome. We mortals can take it a bit lighter

Pekka

 

[Paul Chapman]

So I guess that he had a point there, but only if you are sharpening a blade for a microtome. We mortals can take it a bit lighter

=D> =D> =D>

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Philly]

Derek
The side-to-side thing makes sense to my mind. If that is true in "real-life" is something else! :lol:
Personally, I've been doing a bit of power-honing recently. Works very well, very quickly! Just keep it quiet - Folks round here might think I'm getting lazy....... :roll: :lol:
Cheers
Philly

 

[Pekka Huhta]

When I come to think about it, I keep the irons always tilted to the longitudinal axis of the stone. There is just so much more support that way. And to take it further a 1/8" chisel is much more convenient to sharpen almost sideways, as the leverage of the chisel is oherwise too much to handle. And thinking it geometrically, a 45 deg tilt to either side of the movement makes the most support for the iron/blade/cutter. It's just so natural that you don't even think about it.

It helps to be ambidextrous, I just sharpen the half way around with the left hand and the rest with the right. Otherwise the edge becomes a bit rounded or twisted just on the other side. Both ways it makes a very shallow cambered edge. The one that I prefer. For the more cambered ones I have to exaggerate it a bit.

I returned to supports just this spring, shortly, after a long and heated discussion on a local forum. After being a freehander for a long time I noted that sometimes it really is faster to hone a brilliant second bevel with a guide, but for most of the time I don't bother with the guides.

Whatever guide anyone uses, the edge is the guide, the guide is just the aid. Otherwise you end up making "secondary bevels" for an umpteen times as on one sorry set of chisels I got a while ago. A zillion mirror facets on the bevels, certainly a persistent pipper working on the chisels. The pic isn't as bad as most of these were, but they really were bad. Changing the bevel on the guide for fifteen times and thinking it should be perfect as soon as it gets the mirror shine.....

Pekka

 

[Anonymous]

Forward or sideways, it doesn't matter in the end. I have made half a dozen planes now nad at least 3 of them were used t=with blades straight form a normal bench grinder and they worked fine.

I think any reasonable sharpening stone (my dad used an oil stone for 40+ years as a cabinet maker and carpenter) with any movement (side, straight or figure of 8) will work just fine.

me, I see no pooint in not using a decent jig (veritas for me) as I get far more consistent results with it and the time taken to mount the blade is less than 30 seconds.

I tend not to worry about the sharpening now I have a methid that gives reasonable results (4000, then 8000 norton) as my fun is using the tools

 

[Chris Knight]

Most carving tools have to be sharpened sideways and freehand although a final polish is usually done on a wheel in a longitudinal direction. An important step to ensure the longevity of the edge is to push the tool a few times into a piece of hardish wood as one approaches the end of the sharpening sequence. I've heard this described as consolidating the edge but for my money it is probably more about removing any fine wire edge(s).

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

David Charlesworth wrote:

Being a COLLECTOR of honing guides, as well as a user, there is one in the post to me.

David

One of the guides is being sent to me by Harrelson for review. I will post my impressions to the forum in due course.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[AHoman]

Very recently Harrelson Stanley began marketing his new blade honing guide, the Sharp Skate, which emphasizes his side shapening strategy.

Hi Derek,
Where is he "marketing" this guide? I can't find it on his website.
Thanks,
Andy

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Andy

Harrelson is doing it from here: http://getsharper.com/

You can also email him through Japan Tools: http://www.japanesetools.com/

Regards from Perth

Derek