I’m looking to get a scroll saw for my very small workshop, can anyone suggest any makes? I have looked at Axminster but never had any machines from there also hegner but never really and anything to do with that make either so and advice would be great
Fret/scroll saw
- Thread starter Gerwyn
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Jaco
Established Member
I go with Hegner.
I have 2 - Polycut (large) and multicut (small)
Have a look at some of the other threads in this section.
I have 2 - Polycut (large) and multicut (small)
Have a look at some of the other threads in this section.
AES
Established Member
As above. Just have a "scroll" (sorry!) through the posts in this section. The majority here agree that Hegner is "the Rolls-Royce" of scroll saws. Even people who don't have one (like me)! The only "problem" is the high initial cost of Hegners (though there are some S/H bargains to be had now and then), plus the ridiculously high cost of spares that Hegner charges.
OTOH, they seldom break down, so the need for spares is usually minimal, unless buying a clunker S/H.
Have a look at the "Why Pay More" thread which is a sticky at the top of this section, by member "scrimper".
Also, if you want another opinion, have a look at a post by me (AES) which is about 6 years old now, where I compare a Hegner and a GI Excalibur/Pegas 21 side by side and ended up choosing the Excali (with my reasoning explained). The post is titled "Biting the bullet".
HTH
OTOH, they seldom break down, so the need for spares is usually minimal, unless buying a clunker S/H.
Have a look at the "Why Pay More" thread which is a sticky at the top of this section, by member "scrimper".
Also, if you want another opinion, have a look at a post by me (AES) which is about 6 years old now, where I compare a Hegner and a GI Excalibur/Pegas 21 side by side and ended up choosing the Excali (with my reasoning explained). The post is titled "Biting the bullet".
HTH
scrimper
Established Member
Hi Gerwyn, sorry to be late for the 'party' only just seen your question.
I have three Fret-machines, A cheap Taiwan made one which I was given, a British made Diamond and a Hegner.
The cheap saw is branded Wickes and is available under a huge number of brand names, they are available in a plethora of colours and names and do vary in cosmetic appearance, however they are mostly the same under the 'covers' so to speak. Some even have a once quality name such as Record on them, don't be deceived by such a name it's hardly any different from a 'cheapie' you are just paying extra for a fancy name. These cheap saws are fine for doing the odd bit of fretwork or for cutting tight circles in general woodwork but very frustrating for doing serious fretwork.
My Diamond saw is a good quality machine, built like a 'brick chicken house' in England but no longer available. They do come up on ebay from time to time and can be a good buy however blade changing is awkward especially if you do fine fretwork with lot's of internal cuts. Doug Woodward who made the Diamond saws was working on a better blade change but sadly he passed away before he could finish the job.
Now we come to the Hegner, this is in my opinion the 'Rolls-Royce of fretsaws, unlike most other saws the Hegner is made in Germany it is also basically unchanged bar a few improvements since it was first produced by Helmut Abel in 1975, why change something that is proven to be good?
As AES says above Hegners are expensive and spares prices horrendous (although they are very reliable, mines 23 yrs old).
The machine itself is a joy to use and has no pointless gadgets like lcd displays etc, you can use it for fairly heavy woodwork or cutting the finest fretwork.
As mentioned they are expensive but once you use it you will soon forget how much you paid, which is not the case with a cheap or awkward to use machine which you will regret buying every time you use it.
Here is a link to my Hegner review.
I have three Fret-machines, A cheap Taiwan made one which I was given, a British made Diamond and a Hegner.
The cheap saw is branded Wickes and is available under a huge number of brand names, they are available in a plethora of colours and names and do vary in cosmetic appearance, however they are mostly the same under the 'covers' so to speak. Some even have a once quality name such as Record on them, don't be deceived by such a name it's hardly any different from a 'cheapie' you are just paying extra for a fancy name. These cheap saws are fine for doing the odd bit of fretwork or for cutting tight circles in general woodwork but very frustrating for doing serious fretwork.
My Diamond saw is a good quality machine, built like a 'brick chicken house' in England but no longer available. They do come up on ebay from time to time and can be a good buy however blade changing is awkward especially if you do fine fretwork with lot's of internal cuts. Doug Woodward who made the Diamond saws was working on a better blade change but sadly he passed away before he could finish the job.
Now we come to the Hegner, this is in my opinion the 'Rolls-Royce of fretsaws, unlike most other saws the Hegner is made in Germany it is also basically unchanged bar a few improvements since it was first produced by Helmut Abel in 1975, why change something that is proven to be good?
As AES says above Hegners are expensive and spares prices horrendous (although they are very reliable, mines 23 yrs old).
The machine itself is a joy to use and has no pointless gadgets like lcd displays etc, you can use it for fairly heavy woodwork or cutting the finest fretwork.
As mentioned they are expensive but once you use it you will soon forget how much you paid, which is not the case with a cheap or awkward to use machine which you will regret buying every time you use it.
Here is a link to my Hegner review.
To be honest this has made my mind up , I’m looking for a hegner lots of models out there
What is the opinion on the Axminster saws compared to Hegner?
ajs
Established Member
Looking at the website now I see three Axi branded saws. The cheap one is much the same as any of the other sub £200 models although it does have a proper hold down foot. Most users take them off once they hit a certain level of experience but before then one is infinitely preferable to those that use the clear blade guard for the same role.
The tilting saw arm models used to be highly regarded but to cut a long story short manufacturing changed hands and the newer models are not as well regarded, essentially they are simply not as accurate as they used to be. If you're spending that amount on a scroll saw you expect something top notch for your money.
There is usually a mid range model in there, often described here as the "Hegner clone". That's easily identifiable by an emergency stop on the top arm but isn't listed right now. That's generally well regarded so if you are in the £500 or so price bracket it may be worth holding off a couple of months.
I've had my Henger 2se for at least a couple of years and it's done everything I've asked from it, I have probably made hundreds of 3d puzzles out of 25mm &30mm hardwood and softwood, I started with one of those cloned Chinese under a jet badge, no comparison,
Yes they're expensive and heavy 25kg but you get pay for, oh and bolt it well down,
Hope this helps
Yes they're expensive and heavy 25kg but you get pay for, oh and bolt it well down,
Hope this helps
scrimper
Established Member
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This one is a bargain on Fbook
https://www.facebook.com/marketplac...wse_serp:a1159e2c-a01c-4c31-a080-cf6eb20236b8It is variable speed as well at a great price.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplac...wse_serp:a1159e2c-a01c-4c31-a080-cf6eb20236b8It is variable speed as well at a great price.
AES
Established Member
Scrimper is only PARTLY right.
My own saw, marked "General International"/"Excalibur"/"Pegas" was indeed made in Taiwan. But so what? The big question is, wherever it was made, was it made using the same quality materials, the same design, the same fasteners, and with the same Quality Control as the original batches (which were designed and made in Canada BTW). And in the case of my (I'll call it "Exc 21" for short - Excalibur 21 inch) most definitely DOES tick all the above boxes, "despite" the fact that it was made in Taiwan (as it clearly says in the Manual and said on the box).
And that's the reason I chose it over a Hegner - I bought mine in person at a dealer in Germany, who gave me the chance to try both machines side by side in their own workshop. I chose it over the Hegner because - A) it was just as well made as the Hegner; B) it was cheaper than the Hegner (by a bit, not by much!); C) the spares were MUCH cheaper than Hegner; D) it is an overall much more modern design, especially with regard to the tilting head, rather than the Hegner's (and most other machines') tilting table. Whether you do much in the way of angled cuts or not, and I don't do that many, the tilting head is a HUGE advantage over the Hegner's tilting table.
In short I "bless the day" that I chose the Exc 21 over the Hegner, and that choice is written up in detail by myself in a old post (6 or 7 years) titled "Biting the bullet". But the above reasoning is a summary. Anyway ..................
Now it gets complicated, sorry.
1. Axminster Tools in UK are/were the UK agent/distributor for Pegas, and they originally sold the Excalibur/Pegas machines (the 18, 21 and 30 inch models) direct to the public WITH ONLY the name Pegas. (Pegas do not deal direct with the public, and although they make blades in Switzerland, they do NOT make the machines, they simply "buy" theirs direct from Taiwan with their own Pegas name on them). But then . ..........................
2. Axminster Tools started selling machines WHICH LOOK identical to the above (apart from the addition of a No Volt Release switch which all the above machines don't have), and apart from the fact that they then came in a different colour and with the name "Axminster Trade + a number" on them.
3. As said above, apart from the name, the colour, and the NVR switch, they look identical to all the above machines, but then, a series of posts were being made on UKW here - not just one or two, but quite a few, from several different members - all complaining about excess vibration; about breakdowns of various sorts; about Warranty exchange machines being just as bad if not worse, etc, etc, etc.
As a result of item 3 above I did some research, mainly in the US (their scroll saw market is MUCH bigger than in the UK or Europe I think), and discovered that there are indeed two separate versions of "the same" machine, one being significantly cheapened. And it appears to be those "cheapened machines" which are causing all the trouble - AND the bad reputation that "General International"/"Excalibur"/"Pegas" machines generally now seem to have on this side of the Atlantic.
But in short, all the problems have NOTHING AT ALL to do with being made in Taiwan; and NOTHING AT ALL to do with any machines marked "Pegas": And you CAN buy "Pegas" machines (excellent) from various dealers in Europe, but not I THINK, any longer from Axminster, who now exclusively sell their different coloured "Trade" machines. For example, I bought my Excalibur/Pegas 21 from Dictum Tools in Germany.
I shall now "temporarily" close this post while I go back and look for links to the 2 posts referred to above. When found I'll come back and post them in a P.S. below.
But in the meantime, @scrimper, with respect you are quite wrong to suggest that because something was made in Germany it must be excellent and something made in Taiwain must be rubbish. The above example proves that to be a fallacy! And because I live in Switzerland and see a lot of German products, I can assure that the Germans - and Swiss - are just as "good" at producing crap as anyone else in Asia or anywhere else!
P.S. Here are the links to my 2 posts referred to above:
"Excalibur" scroll saws | UKworkshop.co.uk
Biting the bullet - Ex 21 | UKworkshop.co.uk
Sorry for all the "complications". NOT my doing (for once)!
HTH to clear up the confusion.
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loftyhermes
Established Member
If you don't mind secondhand the look out for a Delta with the Quickset clamps, model numbers, 40-540, 40-560 type 2 or 40-570. The 560 is 2 speed, the 540 and 570 are variable speed.
Bungalowbill63
Established Member
I would agree with AES regarding what he says about the Excalibur/Pegas saws ,however I will have to say that Record marketed the Hawk Scrollsaw in 3 sizes and this saw is better in both performance reliability and build quality than either of the former.
Great machines are out there but don’t fall for the Hegner propaganda on here.
Great machines are out there but don’t fall for the Hegner propaganda on here.
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Save up for the Hegner. It's a fretsaw for life. I'd get the variable speed model and the hold down arm is also worth having. The plastic tube air blower is a bit awkward but can be replaced with an articulated tube. The front of the table is useful for clamping a square and making accurate cutouts and slots etc. You only have to cry once. 
AES
Established Member
Save up for the Hegner. It's a fretsaw for life. I'd get the variable speed model and the hold down arm is also worth having. The plastic tube air blower is a bit awkward but can be replaced with an articulated tube. The front of the table is useful for clamping a square and making accurate cutouts and slots etc. You only have to cry once.
And you would KNOW that, having tried an Excalibur as well yes? Or no? I wonder!
By all means have your brand loyalties, and express your opinions based on "pride of purchase" if you like. But PLEASE, also tell especially the newbies here exactly where - and "where not" - you're coming from!
Just FYI, my first scroll/fret saw was the Dremel (mid 1980's); followed by a German (actually Chinese) Einhell, "same" as many "budget" models that all come out of the same Chinese factory (early/mid 1990's); followed by the Excalibur 21 in (2015). So I DO have some practical experience to base my opinions on.
P.S. NOT that I'm denigrating Hegner. There is NO doubt that the ARE good/well made/high quality. But as others here will attest, and as Bungalow Bill has said above, there ARE other brands which are "at least" - depending on how you judge them - at least as good as Hegner.
And another P.S. The Excalibur/Pegas series of machines will not only take both pinned and pinless blades (of course), but will also take Junior hack saw blades, coping saw blades, jeweller's/piercing saw blades, and also bits of broken band saw blades. This CAN be quite handy, especially if like me, you don't use the scroll saw for "just" fretwork etc, but also for "general workshop cutting".
I don't THINK any Hegner models can do that (not sure - scrimper??), but certainly MANY other brands definitely cannot. And in the case of Dremel (not just my very old model Moto Saw from the 1980's but also all today's models too I think) they will take ONLY Dremel's own blades, which are only 3 inches long, not the standard 5 inches of all other "scroll/fret" saw blades).
FWIallW. Like choosing any other tool, a lot depends on what the individual wants/needs, and NOT "just" on opinions which often seem to be based on just one recent purchase.
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Hi all
Just bought a hegner polycut 3 scrollsaw with a stand and blades. It’s a solid machine and I’ve seen a few today on my travels. It cost me £500 and it’s only 18 months old. I would like to say that you all have been great for advice and the knowledge you have shared. Thankyou
Just bought a hegner polycut 3 scrollsaw with a stand and blades. It’s a solid machine and I’ve seen a few today on my travels. It cost me £500 and it’s only 18 months old. I would like to say that you all have been great for advice and the knowledge you have shared. Thankyou
ajs
Established Member
Can I suggest a little calmness and decorum please? With the greatest of respect this does seem to be flying off the handle at an offhand comment from Scrimper.
The Chinese, Taiwanese, Malays etc are all capable of exceptional workmanship, just look where iPhones etc are made for evidence of that. Yes, I too get tired of that kind of casual discrimination, if you think for a second billions of people do not have any decent engineers among them then the problem is with you and not them. Forty years ago "Made in Japan" or "Made in South Korea" had the same ring to it. Even more recently for e.g. "Made in the Czech Republic" (as for Narex for example). They don't now. They have progressed ecomonically and that is what has changed perceptions, not the inherent character of the people.
However it is also economic reality that most of these territories are comparatively low wage compared to Western Europe or North America. If you're looking to cut costs to the bone both on staff and quality that is where you would chose to do it - it doesn't make sense to employ British, German, French or American labour to make cheap rubbish. That's where the reputation comes from and yes it is unfairly tarring everyone with the same brush. Even then, German, British or American doesn't automatically mean quality either, it is just that cheap tends to be less of an economic driver.
I suspect that (pride) is where a lot of it comes from, also some of the time it's people have genuinelly made the right choice for them. Diamond saws have already been mentioned - if Hegners are the Rolls Royces then Diamonds are the Landrovers, and you can prise mine from my cold, dead hands. For much the same reason you add as a PS in relation to your Excalibur, it has a 375W motor and the ability to accommodate a wide range of blades, it's more than "just" a scroll saw - realistically it does most of what you'd want e.g. a bandsaw and power hacksaw for. That's a killer feature for me as I'm not constrained to wood and I am restricted for space. I did wonder when I saw some of those Excaliburs had power ratings in a similar range, so I read the manual but couldn't see the ability described. Glad to see there is something equivalent on the market, it's something to cite to the insurance company if god forbid anything happened to it.
Oh, and in my opinion that's a true fretsaw for life, not just because it's a good quality saw to begin with, but also for the reason that is apparent just looking at one - they are essentially coachbuilt. Spares are either easily fabricated or standard off the shelf parts. If in twenty years time I need a new motor the original may not be available, I've no doubt it'll be easy enough to find an alternative the saw can be adapted to suit.
Finally I would also advice against "Rolls Royceism" even as an aspiration. It's very easy to say "This is better so get this". If you do that for all your tools then for any finite budget you end up with a very small set of tools and correspondingly low overall capability. Sometimes it's as valuable, or even more valuable to say "You can afford to cheap out on this, these are some good budget options, this is what you lose compared to the expensive stuff".
AES
Established Member
I agree with the majority of what you're saying ajs.
Except perhaps for your QUOTE: Can I suggest a little calmness and decorum please? With the greatest of respect this does seem to be flying off the handle at an offhand comment from Scrimper. UNQUOTE:
With the greatest respect to both your good self and to Scrimper, in re-reading my post above I did NOT find my words to be "flying off the handle", NOR "not calm" NOR lacking in decorum! If either scrimper or anyone else finds that not to be the case, then I apologise - NO "flying handles", "uncalmness", nor "undecorumness" were intended.
Jaco
Established Member
A good buy, you will not regret it.
Nice heavy solid machine.
Wishing you many hours of happy sawing.
