Free Hand Saws - should I restore them?

[Phil Pascoe]

An observation that no one seems to have made - how slowly do you have to saw for the nib to be of any use as a guide? :?

 

[Jacob]

It wasn't much of a stretch, but did I call it or what?

Given Jacob's claim to a perfect memory – we're led to believe he can recall his woodworking classes in school in the 50s with unimpeachable accuracy –

I never said anything of the sort

I suggest he's being 'a little disingenuous' in claiming he's never seen one of these decorative saws because pictures of some examples were posted by AndyT the last time this came up (see link posted by Andy on page 4 of this thread).

I may well have seen them but I don't particularly remember.
Do you understand that or would a more detailed explanation help, or a little diagram of some sort?

It gets a bit boring all these feeble attempts at character assassination but they tend to come from idiots who have lost the argument and have nothing of interest to say.

 

[Jacob]

An observation that no one seems to have made - how slowly do you have to saw for the nib to be of any use as a guide? :?

Good question. :roll:
It's not a "guide" it's a limit marker.
Even sawing at your full speed you catch a glimpse of it on the first few up-strokes and get the measure of the saw and can relax.
Without a nib you just have to take that little bit of extra care to get it right. Once you are used to a particular saw you don't need it - though it's always there as a useful little tell-tale if you lose concentration etc.
Questions like these obviously come from people who have never used an unfamiliar rip saw with a nib, or they'd know. Hence the length of this thread!
PS to answer the next inevitable question - they are also of use on cross-cutting hand saws as the end may be out of sight with wider boards.

 

[Jacob]

You know, having read this lot, I reckon Jacob is right.

Did you get a chance to review the previous thread?

Nibs cannot originally have been there as a marker for stroke length as they were often in the wrong place; as referenced last time, on at least one surviving example it's on the tooth side of the plate! Plus nibs clearly developed out of purely decorative features, while this doesn't prove they remained purely decorative features it does at least suggest it. And it bears repeating, not one but two of the major historical saw makers state outright decoration is their sole purpose.

Once the feature had settled to being what we'd generally recognise as a nib today, could it have been retained for this purpose? No, because many saws were simply too long, not only but especially when you factor in average stature historically.

Gents, get a yardstick, 1m steel rule or a measuring tape and measure a comfortable full saw stroke; don't overdo it, just try to mimic the stroke a pro would use when crosscutting. Now take that measurement and get a ratio of it in relation to your height. Lastly, do some simple sums and get a reasonable figure for the stroke of a guy standing 5'4", if you're not that height yourself. And then realise that saws which had nibs were often 28" long and sometimes longer, with nibs 3" and sometimes less from the tip.

This alone is enough to dismiss the idea. But there's more. Nibs would have to be positioned quite differently for rip saws and crosscut saws to function for said purpose because there are different preferred sawing angles for ripping and crosscutting, and yet on most production saws they are in exactly the same location.

So there you go.

For anyone who is a bit numerically challenged, or just CBA to do the sums themselves , on a 28" saw plate with a nib only 3", or less, from the tip your crosscutting saw stroke would have to be longer than is physically possible if you're 5'4" unless you imagine someone really stretching themselves on every upwards pull is a reasonable saw stroke. Now imagine what kind of contortions would be needed when the saw is being used at 60° and not at 45°!

Now can a nib be used as a marker? If you're the right stature, the saw is the right length and you don't want to use the full length of the saw plate, certainly. But were they, collectively, for this purpose? No, not possible. And there are other suggested purposes where the position relative to the tip isn't important, making them more plausible.

There's a load of carefully over-thought nonsense. Why this deep held commitment to debunking a sensible and harmless observation about the use of the nib?
I guess you have never actually used a 28" rip saw with a nib? You don't have to be a contortionist - or do you have very short arms or some other problem?

 

[Corneel]

The more I think about it Jacob, the less plausible your theory seems to me. When you pick up a new saw and start a cut, the saw will be fully visible until you are a few inches into the cut. By that time a reasonably accomplished sawyer would have addapted his stroke to that particluar saw allready.

Add to that, most people will concentrate on the line to be sawn, not the back of the saw where the nib is.

And last but not least, when something unexpected happens, the human reaction time is particularly slow. It easilly takes 2 seconds between something happening (the nib appearing above the wood ), your brain registring it and sending a signal to your arm and the arm actually reversing the stroke. When sawing vigourously the plate has long been buckled in that time period.

I understand you have found it usefull once or twice, which is fine. But that is a long stretch to implying it was a feature especially made for that purpose. The theory that it was to ty a string for a teeth protector seems more plausible to me. But I still think simple decoration is the most plausible explanation.

 

[Jacob]

The more I think about it Jacob, the less plausible your theory seems to me..........

You are thinking about it too much and too deeply!
Another over-thought debunking by someone who obviously has never used an unfamiliar rip saw with a nib and discovered its practical use.
It's not a theory it's an empirical fact which I discovered whilst using a 28" rip saw for the first time. Many others have reported the same experience - it's not a "theory" for them either. It works.

Have you tested the string/guard theory? Obviously not.

 

[OscarG]

See this is why I use powertools :wink:

 

[swagman]

Vernon U. Ward (then editor of the Fine Tool Journal) implicitly offered his own 18 comments about the saw nib, quoting a list of nib functions that was published in the February 1984 issue of the magazine Carpenter.

1.
Maker or starter tooth,
2.
Used to describe an arc,
3.
Clean sawdust from a cut,
4.
Sighting like the sight on a rifle,
5.
Retain a sheath string,
6.
Clapboard Gauge for narrow siding,
7.
Hook to retrieve cut off pieces out of reach.
8.
Hook to pull lumber toward you on a saw horse,
9.
Used to obtain the correct angle for filing,
10.
Notch the size of teeth for filing guide,
11.
Vestige of handle locking notch for pit saws,
12.
Facilitate the slitting of decorative metal panels,
13.
Remove nails in broken slate,
14.
Practice tooth for saw filer, to check steel hardness,
15.
Holds blade during acid bath pickling,
16.
Vestige of hook originally used for pruning,
17.
Sight to avoid pulling back too far.
18.
No function whatever,
19.
Vestige of the decoration on early Dutch saws.

https://craftsofnj.org/images/sitemedia ... 200506.pdf

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yeah - that's all very well, but did he OK all these with Jacob?

 

[t8hants]

I always thought the nib was to tie your leather thong off on, for your nice leather saw tooth protector, but then I come from the steel industry so what do I know. I am at at a considerable disadvantage of course, in that none of my saws have a nib, so I can't put any theory to the test.
However please keep posting pics of old saws, with or without nibs, as they either make me feel a whole lot better about mine, or think, "gosh thats a nice looking saw, especially being that old," etc.

 

[Jacob]

.....
For anyone who is a bit numerically challenged, or just CBA to do the sums themselves , on a 28" saw plate with a nib only 3", or less, from the tip your crosscutting saw stroke would have to be longer than is physically possible if you're 5'4" unless you imagine someone really stretching themselves on every upwards pull is a reasonable saw stroke. Now imagine what kind of contortions would be needed when the saw is being used at 60° and not at 45°!.....

Couldn't help being fascinated by this bit of nonsense and wonder why ED65 has even bothered to post it.
I know it's nonsense because I regularly use a 28" saw and I am average height, normal arms and not a contortionist.
Simple measure test - hold out a tape measure in your left hand - see how far you can pull it out with your right, straight pull to shoulder, simulating a saw stroke, from vertical, up or down, 90º, 45º, etc.
The result for me was a range of measurements from 34" to 26" depending on angle.
If you turn your body this can be increased by a large amount . Hence a 28" is a handy size and fully usable by an average person but bigger sizes possible.
Numerically challenged obviously, but maybe ED65 also needs to see a physio? :lol:
Or just have a go with a saw?

 

[D_W]

An observation that no one seems to have made - how slowly do you have to saw for the nib to be of any use as a guide? :?

Put an LED on it so you can see it. Modern improvement. Engineers always tell us they can improve the 200 year-old designs we use.

 

[Lons]

Can someone please rename this thread " Jacobs' irrefutable and proven history of the evolution of hand saws" :lol:

Based on the possibility that he may have had a "lightbulb moment" while using one.

His insistence that all and sundry are taking "rubbish" and perhaps should have it explained in simple drawings is purely insulting to to the many who have used such saws, me included, are NOT the "saw nerds" he sarcastically refers to and who in my case didn't need the nib as a reference and cares not one jot what it's for as long as the saw cut the way it should.

To repeat:
As far as I'm concerned Jacobs' THEORY is plausible but so is the decoration argument and as none can be actually proved beyond doubt what is the point of all this argument? (hammer)

 

[Jacob]

Can someone please rename this thread " Jacobs' irrefutable and proven history of the evolution of hand saws"

Why? I didn't claim that, I was just answering the question about the nib

..........
His insistence that all and sundry are taking "rubbish" and perhaps should have it explained in simple drawings is purely insulting to to the many who have used such saws, me included,

Takes two to tango. I get bombarded with insults and sarcasm from the off. Sometimes I feel like responding in kind. As a rule I don't bother.

Jacobs' THEORY is plausible but so is the decoration argument and as none can be actually proved beyond doubt what is the point of all this argument? (hammer)

Except:
1 It does work as tell-tale in the way I and many others have described
2 It's about as decorative as a carbuncle on your nose.
On the decoration point - all makers seem to use much the same design (the blister in the corner of a cut-out from the top edge). If it was only decorative you'd expect to see creative alternatives on this. But no, it's functional, hence the blister at 3 tp 4 inches on all of them (not counting those exotic specimens which are very decorated).

As for proof - look at the Duck Test

 

[Lons]

It was just a suggestion Jacob :lol: :lol: :lol:

Were you politician in a past life by any chance? There seem to be a lot of similarities. (hammer)

Certainly a lot of I say therefore it must be so is going on here.

Sometimes I feel like responding in kind. As a rule I don't bother.

REALLY !!!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

......what is the point of all this argument? (hammer)

It's so that Jacob can have fun trying* to wind everybody else up. He hasn't had this much enjoyment on the forum since Bugbear stopped posting.

* You'll notice that most people are wise to this, nowadays. They just post what they want to contribute, perhaps with a sly little prod of the troll, and then retire to watch the fun. It's better than watching Wimbledon (well, marginally...)!

 

[Jacob]

......what is the point of all this argument? (hammer)

It's so that Jacob can have fun trying* to wind everybody else up. He hasn't had this much enjoyment on the forum since Bugbear stopped posting.

* You'll notice that most people are wise to this, nowadays. They just post what they want to contribute, perhaps with a sly little prod of the troll, and then retire to watch the fun. It's better than watching Wimbledon (well, marginally...)!

I'm genuinely interested in woodwork topics.
I'm drawn to this one because although the function of the nib is simple, useful and obvious there's a massive mob of people anxious to contradict this, just because of something written 111 years ago by somebody who didn't know what the nib was for himself. Weird!
Weirder still is that they become personal, anxious, angry , sarcastic and abusive in the process. Attacking the messenger rather then the message, as above, which tends to imply that they are at a loss and don't know their arsez from their elbows.
Something deeper is going on here. 8) :shock: :lol:
Mind you I've been here before with other topics - such as heated arguments as to why a claw hammer is curved. Or the non woodwork topic of how bicycles stay up. There are many little puzzles along these lines!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... just because of something written 111 years ago by somebody who didn't know what the nib was for himself ...

But it wasn't just a somebody, was it? It was someone writing with the knowledge of many decades of huge scale saw manufacturing and the backing of the company..

 

[Lons]

just because of something written 111 years ago by somebody who didn't know what the nib was for himself.

There you go again! Unless you were around 111 years ago then that's just another of your hypotheses which you state as a fact. You weren't around then were you Jacob? #-o

The duck test you love to refer to is based on reasoning leading to a conclusion which is still in the end a probability not a cast iron certainty and doesn't work for every occasion either imo, not even all ducks look or act like you would expect of a duck.
The fact you actually added a link to it suggests you may believe others aren't aware of that common quotation apparently penned by a poet over a hundred years ago. Somewhat patronising I suspect.

Your actions suggest to some that you are a troll and I guess the duck test could be applied to that but of course I couldn't possibly comment. :wink:

 

[Jacob]

There you go - more feeble sarcasm and abuse! Good morning Lons.

For me the most interesting things to emerge from this thread (besides the waves of anxiety coming from certain quarters) were the two photos posted above by Bm101.
These saws both have another form of tell-tale i.e. the hook at the tip of the cutting edge. This would be felt on the upstroke and tell you that you were at the end of the saw.
I'd guess that this 'tactile' tell-tale was later discarded in favour of the visual tell-tale on the top edge, which we all know and love! Not least because it would have been getting in the way of sharpening.