Free Hand Saws - should I restore them?

[Cheshirechappie]

Thank goodness we all now know.

:roll:

 

[Jacob]

Thank goodness we all now know.

:roll:

I do get tired of that tone of sarcasm - especially coming from CC who regular misunderstands a great many things and has to have them explained patiently.
Some people just can't have a grown up conversation.
In fact the nib is of most benefit to people like CC who has probably not spent much time using a rip saw and is most likely to get it wrong.
People who don't use hand saws would not get it.

I'm not the only one who knows what the nib is for, there are many saying the same thing (and getting the same ignorant attacks)

I've lifted this from that old thread (CStanford):

From the OldTools Archive:

http://www.swingleydev.com/ot/get/181212/thread/

"My name is Tom Opfell. I have had an interest in and collected handsaws for
about 20 years now and own over 1000.
I believe that the actual purpose of the saw nib was, as Sandy Moss [a well-known antique tool seller in the US]
correctly stated, was to warn the operator that the end of the blade was
near to prevent the saw from freeing itself from the kerf and perhaps
injuring the hand holding the board. In his book "The Carpenter's Tool
Chest" published in 1933, Thomas Hibben's states "the little nipple on the
top of our saws has survived from the days when saws were pulled. Such a
mark would serve to catch the carpenter's eye as he pulled back on the saw
so that he stopped his pull before the blade came out of the cut."

Jacob Butler did not dream any of this up. Nor did I, I've seen this mentioned elsewhere, in print, and when I next run across it I'll post it.

The 'decorative' explanation is laughable, regardless of the notoriety of the source. I've had skin tags removed that were more attractive.

 

[Dovetaildave]

http://www.swingleydev.com/ot/get/181212/thread/

I liked the comment from a guy in MI;

"The purpose of the saw nib? .........I'm in the camp that it was intended to generate conversation 100 to 150 years after it was manufactured on a saw."

 

[richarnold]

I'm a bit surprised that no one has mentioned what I consider to be the most plausible explanation for the infamous nib, which is that it gave you something to tie your cord round when you fit a saw guard. without the nib the tie keeps sliding off the end...…. but it is just a theory!...…….

 

[Bm101]

Do you have an image of one of these decorative saws, I've never seen one?

I have no idea what they are for personally, I would guess they have been at one time all the things everyone is arguing about to different degrees.
Decoration, marking gauges, etc. What do I know?
I do know typing saw nibs into google image searches shows these two decorative nibs in the first 10 results.

Look at the wee elephants playing in the river. Bless. Oh wait no. That's a plane? A wood working tool. Serious stuff. :| Its not a marker. At least not on this particular saw.
I'm a duffer with a saw compared to some but I'm not cack handed. I reckon I've pulled the saw to far out the cut maybe twice in my life. It's not a repeatable error really.
This saw is also the one posted by Andy in the same topic thread listed above from 2016. I'm guessing you missed it in that thread Jacob or forgot it maybe.

I clean the windows at Waterhouse Square. Bit off topic I know.

Look at this picture.

Beautiful building isn't it despite the fish eye lens. LOOK at that brickwork! Look at it!
What possible need was there for investing that amount of time and money into the fabric of a building that wasn't for decorative purposes (and any psychological offshoots of that.... We are rich. We are powerful. We appreciate beauty and form. Yada Yada). Who can say for sure because We Weren't There.
Approaching historical 'facts' as data is always misleading because people change. Look at the cultural differences between you and your Grandfathers. Two generations that are probably further apart than the 5 generations before them culturally.
We don't know really do we? We can't really know. If it works as a tie off in your tool box that's grand. If it works as a marker, happy days. If It make's your saw pretty. Give praise and Thanks.

Why can there be no perspective?

 

[Corneel]

The plate length indicator theory is not very plausible. These saws were made for professionals who knew how to use a saw without kinking.

They were made for all and sundry. Every professional started as an amateur and every professional would have used an unfamiliar saw at some time or another.

.....When you look at where the nib came from, Dutch 17 thcentury saws with the decorations on the very nose of the saw plate, you’ll see that is another clue that it wasn’t there as an indicator. Way too far forward.

So in that case it was not a tell-tale.
We are talking about the nibs at 3 to 4" which are obviously there as tell-tales.
Do you have an image of one of these decorative saws, I've never seen one?

Decoration is a plausible explanation. ...

Except generally they aren't decorative in the slightest, even on expensive saws with decorative curly handles

You should understand the work etique from those early times. Nobody would add a feature to a tool so it was "easy for a beginner". Kinking a sawblade was amateurish, and not even a beginning aprentice would have been allowed such stupid stuff. Toolmakers took woodworkers serious. No gentlemen woodworkers back then (we speak 17th/18th century here). When you want to understand antique tools you need to understand the social circumstances of that time too.

And when you don't seem to think that the nib is decorative, that doesn't say much. All blacksmith stuff had very simple decorations, made with just a few file strokes. There isn't much opportunity for decoration on a high precision tool like a sawplate.

Here is a Dutch saw from about 1670. As with a lot of tools the English looked hard at continental examples first, then improved them and made the style more sober.
Dutch saw

 

[Jacob]

.....Nobody would add a feature to a tool so it was "easy for a beginner". Kinking a sawblade was amateurish, and not even a beginning aprentice would have been allowed such stupid stuff.

You are omitting the other circumstance in which a nib tell-tale would be handy - that is when anybody (beginner or pro) is using an unfamiliar saw. My modern hand saws are 22 and 26". My two saws with nibs are 24 and 28". Older saws are very variable. Having a nib is very handy which is exactly what I discovered first time I used them and being suddenly uncertain of the length.

.... There isn't much opportunity for decoration on a high precision tool like a sawplate.

Yes there is! some of them are very fancy - look at Bm101s images above. Incidentally both those saws have a tell-tale - the teeth end in an untoothed hook, which would be felt on the upstroke. Thats a good idea! Also in your example there are enough notches to function as a tell-tale, so they aren't decorative only, they are useful - a decorative tell-tale to match a decorative handle. Later the designs gets simplified and retain only the useful tell-tale function, but without decoration. Later again and even this is lost
Dutch saw

 

[Bale]

Hurrah! Someone else with my saw sharpening skills

Pete

 

[Jacob]

Hurrah! Someone else with my saw sharpening skills

Pete

No prob - as long as they are sharp and have roughly equal set both ways, it will cut. Teeth can go a long way out before they need topping - and even then it's sometimes not essential to top the whole edge - just the most irregular bits. This dramatically increases lifespan - excess topping is the fastest way to wear out a saw.
The hook at the end is the interesting bit - another tell-tale! It would be felt on the upstroke.

 

[Bale]

No prob - as long as they are sharp and have roughly equal set both ways, it will cut. Teeth can go a long way out before they need topping - and even then it's sometimes not essential to top the whole edge - just the most irregular bits. This dramatically increases lifespan - excess topping is the fastest way to wear out a saw.
The hook at the end is the interesting bit - another tell-tale! It would be felt on the upstroke.

Yes... but, sadly, this most resembles my tenon saw.

Pete

 

[MusicMan]

You should understand the work etique from those early times. Nobody would add a feature to a tool so it was "easy for a beginner". Kinking a sawblade was amateurish, and not even a beginning aprentice would have been allowed such stupid stuff. Toolmakers took woodworkers serious. No gentlemen woodworkers back then (we speak 17th/18th century here). When you want to understand antique tools you need to understand the social circumstances of that time too.
/quote]

Actually this is completely wrong in general, though no doubt true for the jobbing artisan. In the 17/18 C there was a great tradition of gentleman woodworkers amongst the aristocracy. See for example https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=d7d ... rs&f=false

This was especially true of woodturning. The treatises of Plumier 1792 and Holzapffel 1843-97 were written for the amateur or the scientist, both in practice members of the aristocracy who did not have to work for a living. The ornamental lathes designed by Holzapffel were primarily sold to the wealthy and nobility. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornamental_turning. Few professionals or their businesses could afford them.

So yes, there was indeed a tradition of ornamenting tools for such wealthy customers.

I still thinkJacob is right about the nib, though.

Keith

 

[Jacob]

There was also a tradition of ornamenting tools (or anything) amongst jobbing artisans, when they had the time. On board becalmed ship - netsuke, macrame, tool decoration? etc. etc. or decorative details or fine shaping on farm tools and wagons. It's as old as the hills.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

That something's old as the hills doesn't necessarily show or prove it has or hasn't a purpose.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

That something's old as the hills doesn't necessarily show or prove it has or hasn't a purpose.

Indeed. Jacob is an excellent example. :lol:

(PS - I wonder if Steliz has restored his saws yet? The way this thread has dragged on, he's probably had time to restore them AND wear them out!)

 

[Corneel]

You should understand the work etique from those early times. Nobody would add a feature to a tool so it was "easy for a beginner". Kinking a sawblade was amateurish, and not even a beginning aprentice would have been allowed such stupid stuff. Toolmakers took woodworkers serious. No gentlemen woodworkers back then (we speak 17th/18th century here). When you want to understand antique tools you need to understand the social circumstances of that time too.
/quote]

Actually this is completely wrong in general, though no doubt true for the jobbing artisan. In the 17/18 C there was a great tradition of gentleman woodworkers amongst the aristocracy. See for example https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=d7d ... rs&f=false

This was especially true of woodturning. The treatises of Plumier 1792 and Holzapffel 1843-97 were written for the amateur or the scientist, both in practice members of the aristocracy who did not have to work for a living. The ornamental lathes designed by Holzapffel were primarily sold to the wealthy and nobility. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornamental_turning. Few professionals or their businesses could afford them.

So yes, there was indeed a tradition of ornamenting tools for such wealthy customers.

I still thinkJacob is right about the nib, though.

Keith

Ha ha, you are quite right there Keith! The saw I linked to is from the Skokloster collection which was purchased by General Wrangl who was indeed a gentleman woodworker like that.

But in Central Europe there was a long standing culture of ornamenting your tools. The Typical Dutch planes with the carved decoration is just one example. And they were used by normal craftsman too! Not all of them, mind you, there are also plenty of pretty plain tools dug out in archeologic sites. But here is one who used a very ornate saw on a jobsitye:
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-people-professions-carpenter-copper-engraving-staendebuch-by-christoph-19813481.html

There definitely was a development from the ornate central Europe tools towards less ornate English ones. The English were pretty uptight when they started to take over as an econimical force in Europe at the beginning of the 18th century. You see that in the moulding planes. The first English moulding planes looked a lot like the Dutch moulding planes, but while the Dutch continued the ornamentation and carved the typical Dutch pattern in the nose of the plane which was to survive well into the twentieth century, The English moulding planes were a lot more austere and had just a few gouge cuts at the end of the chamfers.

Likewise it could very well have happened with the saws. Dutch saws more ornate at the nose, the English with just that nib. Earlier English saws also had a more curved nose which was straigthened out later on.

 

[Lons]

I was going to post pics of the saws I have collected in need of restoration or dumping and ask the same advice as the OP of this thread but not sure I dare now. :roll:

None of mine have nibs though - I think.

 

[Jacob]

......
Likewise it could very well have happened with the saws. Dutch saws more ornate at the nose, the English with just that nib. ....

just the nib; just retaining the minimum useful detail of tell-tale. Makes sense.
The ornamentation would function as a tell-tale too by default but that gets overlooked.
Ornamentation and fine finishing goes back to the stone age. It seems that **** sapiens took every opportunity to perk things up a bit!

 

[Jacob]

I was going to post pics of the saws I have collected in need of restoration or dumping and ask the same advice as the OP of this thread but not sure I dare now. :roll:

None of mine have nibs though - I think.

Go for it it's all harmless fun! You might find out something interesting but I wouldn't count on it. :roll:

 

[ED65]

It wasn't much of a stretch, but did I call it or what?

Given Jacob's claim to a perfect memory – we're led to believe he can recall his woodworking classes in school in the 50s with unimpeachable accuracy – I suggest he's being 'a little disingenuous' in claiming he's never seen one of these decorative saws because pictures of some examples were posted by AndyT the last time this came up (see link posted by Andy on page 4 of this thread).

 

[ED65]

You know, having read this lot, I reckon Jacob is right.

Did you get a chance to review the previous thread?

Nibs cannot originally have been there as a marker for stroke length as they were often in the wrong place; as referenced last time, on at least one surviving example it's on the tooth side of the plate! Plus nibs clearly developed out of purely decorative features, while this doesn't prove they remained purely decorative features it does at least suggest it. And it bears repeating, not one but two of the major historical saw makers state outright decoration is their sole purpose.

Once the feature had settled to being what we'd generally recognise as a nib today, could it have been retained for this purpose? No, because many saws were simply too long, not only but especially when you factor in average stature historically.

Gents, get a yardstick, 1m steel rule or a measuring tape and measure a comfortable full saw stroke; don't overdo it, just try to mimic the stroke a pro would use when crosscutting. Now take that measurement and get a ratio of it in relation to your height. Lastly, do some simple sums and get a reasonable figure for the stroke of a guy standing 5'4", if you're not that height yourself. And then realise that saws which had nibs were often 28" long and sometimes longer, with nibs 3" and sometimes less from the tip.

This alone is enough to dismiss the idea. But there's more. Nibs would have to be positioned quite differently for rip saws and crosscut saws to function for said purpose because there are different preferred sawing angles for ripping and crosscutting, and yet on most production saws they are in exactly the same location.

So there you go.

For anyone who is a bit numerically challenged, or just CBA to do the sums themselves , on a 28" saw plate with a nib only 3", or less, from the tip your crosscutting saw stroke would have to be longer than is physically possible if you're 5'4" unless you imagine someone really stretching themselves on every upwards pull is a reasonable saw stroke. Now imagine what kind of contortions would be needed when the saw is being used at 60° and not at 45°!

Now can a nib be used as a marker? If you're the right stature, the saw is the right length and you don't want to use the full length of the saw plate, certainly. But were they, collectively, for this purpose? No, not possible. And there are other suggested purposes where the position relative to the tip isn't important, making them more plausible.