Free Hand Saws - should I restore them?

[D_W]

I'm not claiming the forum was designed for the purpose of winding Jacob up, but it does seem to be one of its valud uses.

I think we could refer to it as an efficient design for doing that.

 

[Lons]

If you took the time to read this thread in its entirety, you' d see that Jacob never claimed, in his first post, that the nib was designed for his purpose, he merely stated that it was useful as a depth gauge. Someone then immediately prodded him by ridiculing the idea, and Jacob dug himself in deeper. In the time I've been a member of this forum, I've noticed that this is a recurring pattern.
I'm not claiming the forum was designed for the purpose of winding Jacob up, but it does seem to be one of its valud uses.

With all due respect John I've read every post from the start of the thread as it unfolded as I'm interested especially because I have around a dozen old saws waiting for refurbishment, a task I may never get around to however.

I can't see anyone saying that Jacobs opinion is ridiculous whilst Jacob did ridicule the Henry Disston explanation and insisted his own opinion was fact.

Thats not "documentary evidence" it's an idle speculation and sounds 100% nonsense to me.

and

Ergo obviously that's what it's for

I believe his explanation is perfectly feasible but it's still only an opinion and there lies the issue.

Lurker said

Jacob has a problem about being right.However he often is.

ED65 replied

But what about when he isn't, and is just as sure and just as adamant that he is not?
The real issue is not so much the message, it's in the messenger and his unwillingness (or inability, you pick) in recognising when he's spoiling the pitch for the rest of the players.

and .....

where you (or any other reasonable person) sees possibility Jacob sees certainty. His own, and nobody else's despite any amount of evidence or logical argument posted by others.

You posted

Jacob dug himself in deeper. In the time I've been a member of this forum, I've noticed that this is a recurring pattern.

I think many of us probably know where the problem lies but hey life would be very dull without such characters. :wink:
Bob

 

[profchris]

Chisels are useful for opening paint cans: therefore, chisels were designed for opening paint cans

Planes are useful as paperweights: therefore planes were designed as paperweights

At last, I've got the hang of logical thinking!

No you haven't quite got it.
If the only sensible and obvious use for some made thing was, say, to open bottles, you could reasonably assume it was purposefully made as a bottle opener.
You could never be 100% sure without consulting the maker, but he might be just ignorantly following a tradition and have no idea himself. Or he might have been trying to make something else entirely but it turned out to good for nothing except opening bottles!

I'm happy with "reasonable assumption". But that's not the same as knowledge. When you write:

I know what it is for as far as I'm concerned

it comes across as saying that all the other explanations are wrong. Looking at those words again I can see that you might have meant "I know what I use it for", but that's not what you conveyed.

And, going back to the nib, a "sensible and obvious use" might have been as decoration, mightn't it? Unless you think that every design must have been to achieve a practical end, in which case the parend (a curly bracket shape, } ) at the end of many musical instrument fingerboards will be a challenge for you!

Yours is a plausible hypothesis as to why the nib was introduced, and it might well be correct, but I can't see any way of confirming that. The fact that this is how you use it doesn't confirm your hypothesis, it merely make it plausible.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Paul Sellers' use for it is a little more strange - https://paulsellers.com/2014/07/questio ... -handsaws/

 

[Jacob]

......a "sensible and obvious use" might have been as decoration, mightn't it?

Well no - for one glaringly obvious reason; it's not very decorative is it?
If random little notches were decorative you'd see them all over the place; why just there at the right distance for a depth marker?

....
Yours is a plausible hypothesis as to why the nib was introduced, and it might well be correct, but I can't see any way of confirming that. The fact that this is how you use it doesn't confirm your hypothesis, it merely make it plausible.

Strewth, some pedantry here!
The nib is a very useful little detail on a saw for the reasons I've given, so as far as I am concerned that confirms what it's for.
If anybody asks me what it's for I'll tell them the same.
Take it or leave I don't care!
A lot of hot air all due to a passing comment in 1917 from someone who didn't know what it was for himself, and made the arrogant assumption that nobody else knew what it was for either!

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It was probably a fair assumption that no one knew then - no one knows now.

 

[Jacob]

Maybe nobody will ever know? Is it a mystery shrouded in an enigma? :roll:
I've got a fair idea myself but I'm keeping it a secret from now on - saw nerds get so over excited!

 

[Andy Kev.]

I know what it is for as far as I'm concerned

it comes across as saying that all the other explanations are wrong. Looking at those words again I can see that you might have meant "I know what I use it for", but that's not what you conveyed.

And, going back to the nib, a "sensible and obvious use" might have been as decoration, mightn't it? Unless you think that every design must have been to achieve a practical end, in which case the parend (a curly bracket shape, } ) at the end of many musical instrument fingerboards will be a challenge for you!

Yours is a plausible hypothesis as to why the nib was introduced, and it might well be correct, but I can't see any way of confirming that. The fact that this is how you use it doesn't confirm your hypothesis, it merely make it plausible.

[/quote]

I have to break a lance for Jacob here: I reckon you've just undermined your own line of attack by using a quote from Jacob which contains "as far as I'm concerned" which is more or less a synonym for "in my opinion". I wouldn't go so far as to say that you shot yourself in the foot but the bullet definitely singed your big toe (in my opinion). :mrgreen:

 

[Jacob]

What's interesting about this thread is not the purpose of the nib - that's the easy bit; it's obvious what it's for.*
It is actually a neat and simple solution to a little problem, better than a felt tip mark and very likely saved more saws from getting bent. Particularly useful with wide boards where the end of the saw will remain out of sight. Even more so with ripping - which has to be done fast and furiously to be effective.

The interesting thing is the persistent obsession with something written 111 years ago by someone who clearly didn't know what it was for, but extrapolated this into the erroneous idea that it had no use at all.
I find this absolute faith in a bit of nonsense quite fascinating. If you google it there are millions of words on the topic and a really powerful reluctance to accept the obvious.
Almost like religious faith?

*PS To get back to reality, see The Duck Test. Hope that helps!

 

[novocaine]

I prefer
"If it looks like poo, smells like poo and tastes like poo, spit it out, you shouldn't be eating it"

 

[AJB Temple]

You know, having read this lot, I reckon Jacob is right. The nib is not very decorative but adds manufacturing cost. It must have a purpose and it's difficult to think of anything other than a stroke indicator.

 

[Jacob]

You know, having read this lot, I reckon Jacob is right. The nib is not very decorative but adds manufacturing cost. It must have a purpose and it's difficult to think of anything other than a stroke indicator.

Thanks for that!
I'm not alone - there are many out there making the same point but getting swamped by the weird "nobody knows what it's for" gospel, and its evangelists - most of whom I'd guess have never spent much time using a rip saw.

 

[Corneel]

The plate length indicator theory is not very plausible. These saws were made for professionals who knew how to use a saw without kinking. Hamfisted beginners would kink the saw anyway because their reaction time is too slow.

When you look at where the nib came from, Dutch 17 thcentury saws with the decorations on the very nose of the saw plate, you’ll see that is another clue that it wasn’t there as an indicator. Way too far forward.

Decoration is a plausible explanation. Everything was decorated back then and this is typical blacksmiths type of decoration with just a few file strokes.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

If the nib has a definite purpose, why don't all hand, panel and rip saw have nibs?

 

[Corneel]

?

At a time they all had them but they dissapeared with the skew back saws.

 

[AndyT]

Anyone reading this who thinks the arguments haven't been covered in sufficient depth, or misses the days when BugBear was testing any loose assertions of opinion, may well enjoy revisiting this thread from a couple of years ago.

the-qestion-of-the-saw-nib-t98559.html

 

[whiskywill]

I believe the nib is meant to be used for removing dirt from under your fingernails. Well, it's as good a theory as any.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

?

At a time they all had them but they dissapeared with the skew back saws.

Fair enough.

Why do straight-back saws need them, but skew-back saws don't?

Jacob will know. Jacob knows everything.

 

[Jacob]

The plate length indicator theory is not very plausible. These saws were made for professionals who knew how to use a saw without kinking.

They were made for all and sundry. Every professional started as an amateur and every professional would have used an unfamiliar saw at some time or another.

.....When you look at where the nib came from, Dutch 17 thcentury saws with the decorations on the very nose of the saw plate, you’ll see that is another clue that it wasn’t there as an indicator. Way too far forward.

So in that case it was not a tell-tale.
We are talking about the nibs at 3 to 4" which are obviously there as tell-tales.
Do you have an image of one of these decorative saws, I've never seen one?

Decoration is a plausible explanation. ...

Except generally they aren't decorative in the slightest, even on expensive saws with decorative curly handles

 

[Jacob]

If the nib has a definite purpose, why don't all hand, panel and rip saw have nibs?

Because they aren't essential (but they are useful) and fashions change - they disappeared with skew backs and cheaper saw making, along with curly handles.
It's possible that other saw makers also got infected with the "nobody knows what it's for" virus - it does seem very contagious and impossible to cure!

They re-emerge as felt tip marks sometimes.