Free Hand Saws - should I restore them?

[Cheshirechappie]

I've had a look in 'British Saws and Saw Makers' for some info on Smithson.

It seems that no such manufacturer ever existed, indeed nobody of that name has been found in the Sheffield metal trades. However, the name was used by Taylor Brothers for one of their second quality lines, and may have come about by them taking over John Smith and Sons. There were at least two, and possibly more, John Smith firms.

Taylor Brothers were one of the largest Sheffield saw makers, in business from 1837 to 1971.


By the way, 'second quality' does not mean rubbish. If it's clean, straight and sharp, a Sheffield second quality saw will work just as well as a premium saw.

 

[ED65]

For Steliz's sake can we just ignore Jacob on the question of the saw nib? So this thread doesn't become yet another example of him v. everyone else, to no point but to feed the troll and frustrate the rest of us.

 

[lurker]

Jacob has a problem about being right.
However he often is.
This is the first credible suggestion I have heard about the nib.
Not saying it is correct but there is an element of possibility.
Those who slag him off should do it for the right reason, he clearly has a wealth of experience that is not in evidence for many of his detractors.

Saws look like too much hard work to me unless they have some sentimental value. I would salvage the better handles and nuts for when something better comes along and dump the rest.

 

[ED65]

Jacob has a problem about being right.
However he often is.

But what about when he isn't, and is just as sure and just as adamant that he is not?

The real issue is not so much the message, it's in the messenger and his unwillingness (or inability, you pick) in recognising when he's spoiling the pitch for the rest of the players.

Not saying it is correct but there is an element of possibility.

Yes, but where you (or any other reasonable person) sees possibility Jacob sees certainty. His own, and nobody else's despite any amount of evidence or logical argument posted by others.

Did you poke your nose in the recent thread where the OP asked a perfectly innocent question about something he'd spotted in a David Charlseworth video, only for it turn into YET ANOTHER instalment in the unending series of lectures on sharpening from Mr. Butler?

I don't like talking about another person as though they're not there, it's bad form, but the problem is what it is. And if the others contributing to this thread don't want it to degenerate into a pointless circular argument four pages long (like the last time this came up!) then the only option is to ignore him.

 

[ED65]

Steliz, I agree that the last two are most worth your efforts if you want to focus on just the best of the saws.

The first handle is obviously the worst case, going by photos it's just guessing but I'd say it might be rescuable. For best results and to ease the work the saw plate must come out and that means drilling out the rivets and replacing them once you get to reassembly time, so it's hard to justify it except as an exercise in what you can do if you put your mind to it.

It's only worth starting down the road if the wood isn't so far gone that it's ready to come apart, which it looks like it might be. But appearances can be deceptive and a lot of that might be surface weathering that doesn't extend to decay in the interior. The splits, though big and deep, can be stabilised and if it's what floats your boat you could go a surprisingly long way in terms of cosmetic treatment so that when you were done the saw would be unrecognisable as the sad case you started with.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob has a problem about being right.
However he often is.
This is the first credible suggestion I have heard about the nib.
Not saying it is correct but there is an element of possibility.......

It's not a question of being "correct" but it is an answer to the question "is there any use for the nib" to which the answer is yes without a doubt.
From this we can infer that that was most likely its purpose originally. We will never know - it could be a degenerated decorative detail like curly saw handles.
What nobody can say is that nobody knows what it is for - I know what it is for as far as I'm concerned, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
As a depth gauge it is actually very useful and I'm certain that over the years it will have saved a few saws from getting kinked.
What is worrying is the way people dogmatically believe anything they've read if it comes from a half credible source. They need to start thinking for themselves!
Any questions? :lol: :lol:

PS I should add - if you are a beginner with handsaw it's a good idea to put a felt tip mark at about 4" so that you don't kink it by pulling out too far before the down stroke.

 

[Lons]

What is worrying is the way people dogmatically believe anything they've read

Substitute the the word "think" where you've written "read" and you'll have done a self analysis with the result being delusional disorder. :wink:

They need to start thinking for themselves!

Most people do exactly that which is why your statements are treated with scorn. Present them as your opinion rather than fact, which you can't prove btw and you'll get more respect for your undoubted vast experience.
But that's never going to happen as you don't give a flying fig so who cares anyway (hammer)

I don't disagree that's it's a possible explanation but it's most certainly not the fact you state it is. In any case it would have been quicker, easier and cheaper for the makers to just stamp a mark or notch a V in the saw than to shape the whole end so why didn't they do that?

 

[Steliz]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions and nib related education.
I'm not very interested in returning any of these to a clean and shiny state unless they are also fully functional so, this is what I'll do -
Saw 1 - throw it away
Saw 2 - salvage the spare parts
Saw 3 - use the restoration guide on here to bring it back into use
Saw 4 - salvage the spare parts

Thanks everyone.

 

[MusicMan]

There you go - more evidence that traditional makers don't necessarily know why they are doing some things. A good example from the horses mouth!

I think this is probably quite common - traditions are passed on by rote and people may well not know what a particular thing is for but just carry on doing it anyway.

I've certainly seen something similar many times in mechanical engineering and musical instrument manufacture. It's usually of some clever feature introduced by an innovator in the company, but it isn't quite obvious. Years or decades later, the innovator is gone and forgotten; the innovation lives on but in some cases is then nullified by the poor understanding of the successors.

Documentary evidence from the manufacturer is only useful if it is close in time to the original manufacture. A catalogue produced years later doesn't have much evidentiary value. So is this the case for that Disston catalogue? What does it say in the very earliest catalogues?

 

[Jacob]

There you go - more evidence that traditional makers don't necessarily know why they are doing some things. A good example from the horses mouth!

I think this is probably quite common - traditions are passed on by rote and people may well not know what a particular thing is for but just carry on doing it anyway.

I've certainly seen something similar many times in mechanical engineering and musical instrument manufacture. It's usually of some clever feature introduced by an innovator in the company, but it isn't quite obvious. Years or decades later, the innovator is gone and forgotten; the innovation lives on but in some cases is then nullified by the poor understanding of the successors.

Documentary evidence from the manufacturer is only useful if it is close in time to the original manufacture. A catalogue produced years later doesn't have much evidentiary value. So is this the case for that Disston catalogue? What does it say in the very earliest catalogues?

Yes I agree but it goes deeper than innovative details. For instance I've found myself having to explain why claw hammers, pinch bars, nail pullers, etc are curved. The curve is fundamental to how they work but it's not immediately obvious, and many of the makers of these things could be excused from having no idea at all.
By extension I'd argue that a mortice chisel is curved for a similar reasons of leverage - the shifting fulcrum point. Whereas normal sharpening bevels are curved for another reason altogether - it's easier than doing them flat.

 

[dzj]

Not sure what the nib was originally intended for, but here's an example of a
fellow using it as a compass:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKia6jKSFIc

If we all put our thinking hats on, I'm sure we could come up with an idea or 2 also.

 

[Just4Fun]

I have not noticed anyone suggesting the saw blades be re-used to make scrapers. (Apologies if someone has and I missed it). I have done that with some saws I decided to scrap. It seems more sensible than just throwing them away, and I would have thought most saw blades could be re-used this way.

 

[Jacob]

....... Present them as your opinion rather than fact, which you can't prove btw .....

Can you prove that nobody knows what the nib is for?

 

[lurker]

I have not noticed anyone suggesting the saw blades be re-used to make scrapers. (Apologies if someone has and I missed it). I have done that with some saws I decided to scrap. It seems more sensible than just throwing them away, and I would have thought most saw blades could be re-used this way.

I think they are too pitted for scrapers.
Best source of scraper material is builders skips were you often find a discarded hard point saw

 

[t8hants]

I have a couple of blacksmith made hoe's that use old saw blades, ideal final use for disposable saw plates.

 

[Lons]

....... Present them as your opinion rather than fact, which you can't prove btw .....

Can you prove that nobody knows what the nib is for?

No and I never said anything about that in the first place Jacob you're side stepping as usual you must be a pretty good dancer by now! :lol:
It was you who stated that your version is fact when it's actually just an opinion so down to you to prove you're right.

All I pointed out is that you pontificate and insist that what you believe to be true is actual fact which isn't necessarily the case.
Had you said something like, when using those saws I had a lightbulb moment and thought maybe that's why the nib is there rather than insisting that what you say is gospel then the reaction you might have got was - hey that makes some sense, might well be but your history arrogant posts and actions that get you banned suggests you enjoy the whole process which most probably feeds your delusional disorder.

But as I said, you don't give a monkeys so who cares if that's what floats your boat!

 

[profchris]

Chisels are useful for opening paint cans: therefore, chisels were designed for opening paint cans

Planes are useful as paperweights: therefore planes were designed as paperweights

At last, I've got the hang of logical thinking!

 

[Jacob]

Chisels are useful for opening paint cans: therefore, chisels were designed for opening paint cans

Planes are useful as paperweights: therefore planes were designed as paperweights

At last, I've got the hang of logical thinking!

No you haven't quite got it.
If the only sensible and obvious use for some made thing was, say, to open bottles, you could reasonably assume it was purposefully made as a bottle opener.
You could never be 100% sure without consulting the maker, but he might be just ignorantly following a tradition and have no idea himself. Or he might have been trying to make something else entirely but it turned out to good for nothing except opening bottles!
Science consists of working hypotheses, not absolute truths.
Chisels/planes have other more valuable uses (for some of us :lol: ) .

PS I forgot to say - some saw nibs have a little hook - were they intended as bottle openers?

 

[Lons]

I forgot to say - some saw nibs have a little hook - were they intended as bottle openers?

Of course not :roll: it's a special feature for those users with a squint.
I think that's true so must be a fact :wink: :lol:

 

[John Brown]

If you took the time to read this thread in its entirety, you' d see that Jacob never claimed, in his first post, that the nib was designed for his purpose, he merely stated that it was useful as a depth gauge. Someone then immediately prodded him by ridiculing the idea, and Jacob dug himself in deeper. In the time I've been a member of this forum, I've noticed that this is a recurring pattern.
I'm not claiming the forum was designed for the purpose of winding Jacob up, but it does seem to be one of its valud uses.