forum gets bigger, more and more on-lookers

[Charley]

Hi Keith,

No problem, I'd rather you pick on me then another member as I don't get upset easily :wink: and I wouldn't want this thread to cause members to leave UKW.

Lets start with the poll on the index page. To be fair I've forgotten about the poll and it does need updating. I can see where you are coming from but I don't see it as dangerous advice just worrying facts. When the issue is brought up on the forums we are the first to jump to the case and tell them how dangerous it is.

Please can you explain why OSB and plaster board is such a no-no in a workshop? 100's even 1000's of people use them in workshops all over the UK. :? :?

About the switch. If I recall the member was asking how to keep the router switch pressed down. There was no need to mention a NVR switch as that wouldn't of fixed his problem.

I thought you'd mention the importing tools thread :wink: This is an issue that is always being brought up on ww'ing forums and even the magazines. Lot's of people import tools and all with success I've never heard a horror story yet. Of course that doesn't mean there aren't any but as electrics aren't my strong point I can't argue your case.

Anyway welcome to the forums I hope you stick around

 

[Anonymous]

Since you haven't responded to my post keith I will add that using a table saw without its hood ( providing you are reasonably experienced table saw user) is far less dangerouse IMO than wearing inappropiate or dangerously loose clothing in the workshop.

 

[Keith Smith]

Charley I hope you don't think I am picking on you it is certainly not my intention.

As for the poll, faced with such worrying results it would be wise to remove it, as IMHO it condones the non use of the guard and perhaps replace it with a reminder that guards are provided for a purpose. As I ask visitors to my workshop "How many fingers have you got" , they usually respond with "ten" and my reply is "make sure you still have that many when you leave".

OSB is the most dangerous boarding know to man (this man anyway) have you ever had on of the strands down your fingernail? agony, it is not particularly strong for fixings unlike ply or flooring grade t&g either.; and plasterboard is susceptible to damp, has no resistance to knocks, will not take fixings well, needs finishing.

As for the switch this was a sin of omission, his problem was to keep the router on but someone should have warned him that a NVR switch should be used as he was obviously a beginner and would be unaware of the potential dangers.

Imported tools can end up costing nearly as much as UK spec ones, they have no warranty, run at full power with only 5/6 speed therefore the cooling doesn't work well and they get hot. So you pay a lot of money for a poorly performing tool to throw away when it stops working, make sense to you?

Keith

 

[Keith Smith]

Bilzee while I take your point as to the inadvisability of wearing loose clothing, the use of a table saw without the guard is something to be avoided at all costs. I accept that there are occasions such as rebating when the guard is removed, but in those situations I always try to take extra precautions, keeping the blade as low as possible and the fence close. I also have the luxury of a beam mounted guard and extractor hood so I can, in most cases, keep a guard on even when rebating.

240 people who responded never use a guard and that is ridiculous. Your post only encourages such action, on a site where there are so many beginners. No competent, experienced 10 fingered table saw user would remove the guard unless absolutely necessary.

Keith

 

[Charley]

Keith you should cut rebates with a router or hand plane not on the table saw :!:

You should only think about cutting rebates on a table saw if you have a guard mounted on a beam (like you do) and a riving knife that can be lowered to the same height as the blade.

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Alf

OK, they didn't mention UKW but it doesn't matter, does it? :wink:

It might have been a nice, nay honourable, thing to do though. GWW gets plenty of air time on here, so a little in return would be a way of thanking Charley perhaps?

OK, point taken it would have been nice.

Cheers
Neil

 

[Alf]

Keith you should cut rebates with a router or hand plane not on the table saw :!:

You should only think about cutting rebates on a table saw if you have a guard mounted on a beam (like you do) and a riving knife that can be lowered to the same height as the blade.

Touche... :wink:

Personally I seldom run my fingers down the wall of my workshop, so OSB is no problem. Must be a Shropshire thing... Possibly one of those "not my advice so it must be poor advice" situations that I mentioned to you, Keith? I certainly consider it a lesser evil than MDF in terms of dangers to mankind . :?

A sin of omission. Hmm, that opens up all sorts of possibilities. For instance, if someone asks "which bandsaw should I get?" do we tell them you need a different sort of blade for cutting up frozen meat on it, just on the off-chance? :roll: Of course not. Can we exercise some common sense here, please? Or are we to assume that all members are morons and are unable to think for themselves? Although perhaps in some cases... :? :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Charley]

Touche... :wink:

Sorry :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

240 people who responded never use a guard and that is ridiculous. Your post only encourages such action.

Ermm, no, I don't think it does.

If people read my posts concerning this they will see my provisos.

Few would argue that the table saw is a safer machine to use with the guard off. However, that is a long way from proving that it suddenly becomes lethal when the guard is removed. Intrinsically of course the only real danger is the operator. Providing that he is alert to the extra danger and is competent I can see no great issue. Indeed I find that accidents are far more likely with the machines that are considered less dangerous where complacency is more likely.
What my posts on this subject of safety can do is alert them to the good sense about all the things I mentioned which can make their time in the workshop far safer.

As for the 240 in the poll they regretably didn't need any encouragement.

Indeed, I would say again. I would use a table saw without a hood when and where necessary ( bearing in mind the extra danger) but I never would even enter my workshop with a loose tie or perhaps an identity bracelet or perhaps a loose shirt cuff for they surely are 'an accident waiting to happen.

Edit: Incidently, given everything as equal I consider a hand held circular saw more dangerous than a table saw without its guard, or perhaps a chainsaw.

 

[Aragorn]

Just to add my experiences as a relatively new forum member and an experienced professional woodworker...
I have spent years using the table saw without its guard, and I have said before how I am aware of the danger. However, I don't condone it at all to anyone, and I have found nothing on these forums but encouragement never to take it off.
Everyone needs to remember that personal safety is our choice, and this forum always tries to encourage the safest possible practice. I think that a new woodworker reading these forums would be much better equiped to work safely than someone who just starts using a cheap tablesaw untrained.

A

 

[Anonymous]

240 people who responded never use a guard and that is ridiculous. Your post only encourages such action, on a site where there are so many beginners. No competent, experienced 10 fingered table saw user would remove the guard unless absolutely necessary.

Keith

Norm has been making NYW for about 16 years without a guard (and uses dados) yet he has 10 fingers and no 2x4 shaped dent in his face.

I use the guard mainly for the splitter but do not really think that the rubbishy plastic things that are fixed to our saws signifcantly prevent injury

how many of the 240 people in the pool have cut fingers off or been injured as a result of no guard etc.???

 

[kityuser]

come on people! theres a fine line between debate and "winding-up" come "digs" at people.

The whole idea of this thread had spouted from a talk with my father about magazine reviews.

I`m aware that thread content can evolve as the thread progresses, but yet again we seem to have digressed (spelling?) into a debate on table-saw safety :?

whoes going to mention the dado baldes then?



the main point i was origonally getting at was magazine content (or media content in general) being influenced by forum posts, was this good or bad..............

note: several good points have been made, and I thank those posters :roll:

it was not my intention to setup a thread spawning yet again table saw saftey issues! (nor line anyone up for a "ribbing")


by the way:
charley > i only just noticed this:
All written and photographic materials (unless other wise stated) on this site are copyright 2000-2004 UKWorkshop.co.uk and may not be used, copied, or reproduced without written permission from Charley Fell.

has this always been there?

 

[Charley]

I agree - lets try to get back on topic....

by the way:
charley > i only just noticed this:
All written and photographic materials (unless other wise stated) on this site are copyright 2000-2004 UKWorkshop.co.uk and may not be used, copied, or reproduced without written permission from Charley Fell.

has this always been there?

It's always been on the index page so I thought I might aswell put it throughout the whole site

 

[Steve]

Wot a good fred!
Can't resist my ten bob's worth here - especially as I spent many years in publishing.
This is a forum - by definition it is a medium of free and open discussion and journalists therefore have as much right to make whatever use of it they wish as anybody else, with or without crediting the 'source'.
On the subject of source, I find it very hard to believe that any self-respecting writer would publish something read on an internet forum - even a good one - without having also verified it. Even if he or she tried, it would never get past the editor and certainly wouldn't get past the legal team unless it was checked.
The moderators and contributors should be delighted that the media is taking an interest in this forum - it is a symptom of success and quality. It means it is earning a reputation and gaining respect. There can be no better accolade, surely?

As for the transgression/safety issues - I feel strongly that this is a matter for the individual - NOT for the moderators. Indeed, one of the reasons this forum is successful is because the moderators DON'T impose their opinion. They provide them, but don't force them down our throats.

Keith wrote:

As for the poll, faced with such worrying results it would be wise to remove it, as IMHO it condones the non use of the guard and perhaps replace it with a reminder that guards are provided for a purpose.

What's the point of having a poll about guards on safety saws, and then when the results start to build up - removing it because you don't like them? In other words, ask a question of people, but if the answer doesn't suit your purposes, don't give them the result on the grounds that they will think UKWW condones the use of tablesaws without guards. That is preciselt the same as asking people if they've ever dropped litter, and then editing the results in case they begin to think it's OK to drop litter because everybody else does it.
PER LEEEASE!

Isn't there enough 'nannyism' going on?
For my money, Bilzee's approach is by far the most sensible and realistic.

Also - the copyright statement is meaningless and unenforceable. (Sorry guys)!

Lordy lordy - I feel better for that!

Steve

 

[Steve]

Finally there is some very poor and downright dangerous advice on this forum, why don't all the professionals correct this?

Ive just been re-reading this thread, and my experience of this forum is that on the few occasions when something even mildy risky has been advised, there is a strong response from people pointing out that fact. As for 'very poor and downright dangerous' - could you point a couple out to me? I haven't seen 'em!

Steve

 

[Steve]

OK - OK - I know I'm soap-boxing, but I just want to make one more point! That's it - I promise! (For now, anyway).
I don't know if this get's up anybody else's nose as much as it does mine, but what's this thing about 'professional' and 'amateur'?
Why is 'amateur' used so often in a derogatory or apologetic context?
An amateur woodworker can be - and many are - a master of his or her craft. Equally, a professional can be - and many are - a real bodge artiste.
The difference is not one of status or expertise, but one of income.
'Professionals' often cut more corners, take more risks and employ more shortcuts than dedicated amateurs.

That's it. I'll get me coat now, shall I?

Steve

 

[kityuser]

just the clarify my previous post

I use the term "professional" to describe somebody who earns thier MAIN salary thru woodworking. (this may not be the correct meaning of the word in everybodies eyes, but...... never mind)
It does not imply skill level in any way!

example:
I am a very Proficient guitarist but sadly am not lucky enought to be a professional.

is it a good thing that the media professionals can again acess (via UKW) to such a concetrated group of woodworkers (both pro and am.)????

i.e. if 50 people on here have a bandsaw X , that they really rate, is this going to influence the review of a writer who frequents these pages?

I`m beging to think NOT (based on points raised from previous posts).

It is worth Noting though that there are such people watching, and if like steve states the copyright statement isn`t legal or impossible to impose, then presumably IF YOU DON`T WANT YOUR POST MATERIAL PUBLISHED, YOU SHOULD`NT POST. (ideas/ tips etc etc)

> charley :
how does UKW stand on this issue?

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Steve

Before I say anything can I please make clear that I am not a professional woodworker. I am sure that there are good and bad in all professions, but you cannot denounce the good professional for the sins of the few.

'Professionals' often cut more corners

I was fine with your postings until I got to this point. In my experience professionals know the best way to do something because they have done the same thing many times before.

...take more risks

Professionals, through experience, will make a risk assessment on any job.

...and employ more shortcuts than dedicated amateurs.

My first point covers this one. A professional has to earn his money from his work so he or she will, of necessity, have to carry out the work in the shortest possible time.

Joe Public doesn't like to pay more than it has to for a job. :wink:

I think I'd better go and hide in my shelter now. Hey Gill, please move over. :wink:

Cheers
Neil

 

[Charley]

Just to clear something up. The copyright notice on the bottom of everypage (including the forum) is nothing to do with the magazines and Kity in fact like Steve I doubt the GW'ing printed the news just becuase of a forum post.

I put up the copyright notice because I'm updating the site and felt it's better if its around the whole site and applys to my reviews, projects & guides etc..

It's only showing on the forum because theres a set 'footer' file which is included on every page of the site. If possible I will remove the notice on the forum to avoid any confusion.

Oh and I haven't removed the table saw poll, just added a new one Old polls can be found here: https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/poll/index.php

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Steve,
I take your points - especially your definition of a professional, which is traditionally the correct definition. It seems to have come to mean someone having or showing great skill, but the core definition is someone who does something for reward. But then my lads use the terms 'wicked' and 'bad' to mean completely different things. Anyhow - enough semantics!
Personally, I think it is a good thing that media professionals can and do gain access to the forum, which is certainly representative. My point however, was that the question is redundant because this is a public forum. There are very few media amateurs that I know of - the media professionals (the NUJ) have pretty much seen to that.
I also agree about some of the reviewers - I've read some reviews about bits of kit and wondered if they were talking about the same thing! As a short anecdote, I know a journalist who was booked to review a Joni Mitchell concert and didn't go. His review appeared in Melody Maker just the same. The photographer did go, gave him his opinion (he was obviously concentrating on photographs, not the concert) and that was it.
Your last statement is bang on the money - if you don't want something publicised, then don't publicise it.

Steve