Flooring chipboard

[krismusic]

hi guys. Am I right in thinking that with tounge and groove chipboard it is not necessary to support the short joins?
Thanks for any advice.

 

[blackrodd]

No, you're not, You'll have bouncy and squeeky floors!
Start and stop on a joist and stagger the butt joins, or fix noggins.
Regards Rodders

 

[krismusic]

Yikes! Thanks Rodders. I'm flooring out a loft for a friend. If I'm luck the boards will fall on the joists. If not, is a few inches away from a joist not good enough? Thanks for your help. Averting potential disaster. :shock:

 

[blackrodd]

In that case fix some noggins and support the floor which will save on chipboard.
By the way, Just in case you've forgotten, don't use a hammer and nails up there, or you may well blow nails or crack ceiling joints, use the jolly old battery screwdriver, and if it's a really old place, not on hammer!
Regards from really sunny devon, Rodders

 

[petermillard]

Are you boarding this out for habitable use/foot traffic, or just for storage? Is it with full-size (8'x2') T&G chipboard or DIY shed 'Loft Panels'? Makes a big difference...

Pete

 

[Mar_mite]

I take it your using the 8'x2' stuff? I have never supported the short joint. That's the whole point of it. Run a bead of wood glue along the tongue.

 

[blackrodd]

I've always cut on a joist for a butt join, or noggin out when possible instead.
Page 24 of the Norboard pdf says t&g end joints should be on a joist, or on fixed noggins.
You can glue the short ends, but with "no squeek", their product.
And square edge boards should be noggins at every edge and ring shank nails or screwed.
And they make the stuff 4 miles from here, in sunny Devon.

http://www.norbord.co.uk/sites/default/ ... 202012.pdf
Regards Rodders

 

[krismusic]

I really appreciate the replies guys. It's a loft for storage. 8x2's 18mm to keep the weight down. Glueing the joins is new to me. Noggins would be a PITA. Maybe I could get away with glueing for a loft?

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If the boards are staggered the joints will be supported by the boards either side. The sides will be glued as well as the ends - so long as you have no unsupported outside edges, what's the problem?

 

[blackrodd]

If the boards are staggered the joints will be supported by the boards either side. The sides will be glued as well as the ends - so long as you have no unsupported outside edges, what's the problem?

The OP Was about the sheet ends not being supported by a joist,and needing noggins as mentioned by the makers, Norboard, not the sides.
I just mentioned how it should be done, as usual there are shortcuts!
Regards Rodders

 

[Phil Pascoe]

" not necessary to support the short joins?"
He's not talking about the ends. There aren't joints on the ends.

 

[rafezetter]

To me, when OP is saying short joins I think he means where the ends of the sheet are floating instead of on a joist, I would personally not rely on a T&G joint solely as even though it's storage, feet will be up there and a foot in exactly the wrong place could break that joint; it is only chipboard after all, and the T&G lip will only be 5mm or so plus when you glue all you are gluing is the outermost layers and with chipboard you can break bits off with your fingers so I think relying on glue alone with even T&G chipboard is a mistake.

Only a few inches like (3 NOT 6), you can prolly get away with it, anything more and I'd put a noggin (just some 2 x 2 would do), 1 screw from either side and a bit of glue would be sufficient. It may be extra work, but a foot through the ceiling sometime down the line will cost hundreds to repair.

Following the manufacturers guidelines is always good sense when it's someone else's property.

 

[Mar_mite]

The joint will be supported by the boards either side. What's the point of the ends being t and g? Putting noggins in would be a nightmare. If you need to support the short joint, then surely you would need to put noggins along every joint, even the long edges.

 

[petermillard]

The joint will be supported by the boards either side. What's the point of the ends being t and g? Putting noggins in would be a nightmare...

Exactly! If a manufacturer recommends putting noggins in to support their T&G edges then they're either displaying a marked lack of faith in their product, or indulging in a level of @rse-covering that would have me avoiding that manufacturer.

There are times when noggins are needed - unusually wide spacing on some joists of old houses, for example, or sometimes the boards just end up needing a bit more support because that's the way the cuts work out - but putting noggins under every short T&G joint (assuming the boards are properly laid of course) is massively over-engineering the job, and just making work for yourself IMHO.

Impressed that the OP can get 8x2s up into the loft space of a North London house though

Cheers, Pete

 

[blackrodd]

To me, when OP is saying short joins I think he means where the ends of the sheet are floating instead of on a joist, I would personally not rely on a T&G joint solely as even though it's storage, feet will be up there and a foot in exactly the wrong place could break that joint; it is only chipboard after all, and the T&G lip will only be 5mm or so plus when you glue all you are gluing is the outermost layers and with chipboard you can break bits off with your fingers so I think relying on glue alone with even T&G chipboard is a mistake.

Only a few inches like (3 NOT 6), you can prolly get away with it, anything more and I'd put a noggin (just some 2 x 2 would do), 1 screw from either side and a bit of glue would be sufficient. It may be extra work, but a foot through the ceiling sometime down the line will cost hundreds to repair.

Following the manufacturers guidelines is always good sense when it's someone else's property.

That's exactly what I thought, Which is the short side on an 8'x 2' sheet? As R O Bob said last week, some people
don't read all the post.
Rodders

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It was difficult not to read the whole post - it was one sentence. I've laid chipboard floors over the last 30yrs or more and I've never yet put noggins on joints, always glued all sides, never yet had one squeak or fail. Why bother with T&G else?

 

[Fat ferret]

Was lead to believe when the stuff first came out the advice was you didn't need to support short joins. Then some full bodied person jumped on a join and they changed it.

I never bother supporting joins, just stagger them and use poly urethane glue.

 

[krismusic]

The joint will be supported by the boards either side. What's the point of the ends being t and g? Putting noggins in would be a nightmare...

Exactly! If a manufacturer recommends putting noggins in to support their T&G edges then they're either displaying a marked lack of faith in their product, or indulging in a level of @rse-covering that would have me avoiding that manufacturer.

There are times when noggins are needed - unusually wide spacing on some joists of old houses, for example, or sometimes the boards just end up needing a bit more support because that's the way the cuts work out - but putting noggins under every short T&G joint (assuming the boards are properly laid of course) is massively over-engineering the job, and just making work for yourself IMHO.

Impressed that the OP can get 8x2s up into the loft space of a North London house though

Cheers, Pete

It's my mate in Gravesend Pete. :lol: Access is exceptionally good.
I want to do the job properly for my mate, of course, but don't want to turn it into a massive ballache if I can help it!

 

[blackrodd]

The choice is yours as to what advice you decide to use.
Screw a couple of boards up and have a test you're self!
Don't forget there are 2 different thicknesses of board for 450mm or 600mm centres
Regards Rodders

 

[petermillard]

It's my mate in Gravesend Pete. :lol: Access is exceptionally good.
I want to do the job properly for my mate, of course, but don't want to turn it into a massive ballache if I can help it!

Good news about the access, and no, nobody needs to be making work for themselves - especially if it's a favour for a mate! Like BR says above, bang a few boards down and see; in case it isn't clear, you need to be staggering the boards so the short T&G ends are supported by the boards above and below:-

The weakest point will be where the 'X' is in the diagram above, and in a properly laid floor (screwed to the joists, glued along the short edge) it will take an incredible amount of force to make that joint fail - far more than what falls under 'normal' use IMHO. If the joists are unusually wide, or of the room was to be habitable (i.e. not just for storage) then I'd suggest using 22mm rather than 18mm, but for storage the 18mm should be fine.

Let us know how you get on - and don't forget gloves and a face-mask; mucky places these lofts!

Cheers, Pete