Flattening Waterstones

[nimmaj]

Hello!

So I spent the weekend flattening the backs of some new LN chisels and the back of a plane blade. One of the things i found really hard was to keep my 1000 grit king stone flat. The 800 and 6000 are easy to flatten, but the 1000 grit destroys the wet and dry paper i've got very quickly and takes ages to flatten anyway.

Also no matter how much i break the back of the wet and dry, it always seems to curl up very quickly. (The APTC stuff doesn't, but it doesn't last as long as the current set i've got from workshop heaven).

Having read through many posts on this forum, I wondered if anyone else struggles flattening the 1000 grit stone and whether I could have your thoughts on a few options:

* stop using the 1000 grit and just use the 800/6000 (David Charlesworth suggests this I think)
* try using this drywall stuff people like from b&q
* get a dmt 10" bench stone brought back from the states for me

I like the 1000 grit stone because it often highlights that i've not flattened the back of chisels with the 800.

The diamond stone option worries me because everyone who likes diamond stones on this forum doesn't seem to use water as a lubricant and you'd have to do this for flattening water stones.

I don't think i want to use a lapping based solution because i'm worried that the act of lapping is likely to un-flatten whatever the grit is embedded in.

Any thoughts appreciated!

Cheers,
Ben[/list]

 

[Philly]

Welcome to the forum, Ben!
I've been using drywall screen for the last year - flatten the stones very quickly and is slow to clog. I think you'll be very impressed with it.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[woodbloke]

Hi Ben - welcome to the forum. I don't use waterstones at all now (I ruined a complete set of Jap chisels ) 'cos I wasn't careful enough in keeping the stone dead flat...and therein lies your problem. Any slight concavity will cause the corners of the chisels to wear first and then you've had it!
I now use a piece of w/d paper (150g I think) glued with Spraymount to a bit of 10mm float glass (60mm wide) and I use the Charlsworthian method by which only 50% of the blade back is in contact with the paper. Chisel backs are flattened really quickly and can actually become concave, which is slightly better than the other way round If you work down thru' the grades the back soon end up with a mirror finish - Rob

 

[mr]

Another vote for Drywall screen. Draw a criss cross pattern with a pencil over the face of the stone and scrub it back and forth on the drywall screen. Doesn't take long. Do it every time you take a new edge to the stone and the the'll stay nice and flat.

Cheers Mike

 

[Tierney]

I've the same problem. I tried searching on the B&Q website for 'drywall screen' and didn't get anything - is there somewhere else I could try?

DT

 

[George_N]

I certainly bought my drywall screen from a B&Q warehouse, I think the brand was "Oakey" . Two or three sheets in a cardboard packet, in the same section as the other abrasives.

 

[mr]

Its usually hanging on the pegs with the other abrasives if you go in to a branch. You will have to go into the branch cos it's not available online, but for reference here it is,

http://tinyurl.com/6x555p

Cheers Mike

 

[nimmaj]

Thanks for all the replies - think i'll give the drywall screen a go.

Here's the link for the stuff at b&q

link

Presumably it will be spam filtered...

Cheers,

Ben

 

[mr]

See My tiny URl also b&Q just a monstrous long url to get into the forum.

Cheers Mike

 

[nimmaj]

Sorry Mike - missed your post while posting mine!

Thanks for the tiny url - much neater!

Ben

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Ben

Re your original post ...

WHY are you flattening the backs of new LN chisels???!

You most certainly can use water with DMT diamond stones. I use a 10" Extra Coarse duostone on my Shaptons.

If you do plan to use W&D, then glue it down. I do not go along with the water tension school. The paper always curls.

I believe I posted the tip about drywall screen (aka plasterboard mesh) here a few years ago. The 220 grit worked well on my Kings back then. It is not as good on the Shaptons, which are much harder.

A couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity to use a Shapton diamond lapping stone. It was fantastic - and very pricey. But left the Duostone for dust.

I prefer not to lap the backs of chisels on waterstones, especially the lower grits. These do not remain flat as long as the harder, higher grits. As a consequence the stones do not relate well to each other. The soft Kings are the worse offenders here. Better to use sandpaper.

See my article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/Lapping the Backs of Blades.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[nimmaj]

Hi Derek,

Thanks for taking time to respond!

Well I _think_ that they were not massively flat! And the parts that weren't wearing stayed in the same place and reduced in size with flattening (flattened stones very regularly - learned my lesson about that!) which i reckon means i was right and it wasn't hollowed stones... Was following David Charlesworth's dvd.

Axminster's been selling the LN paring handled bevel edge chisels for £29 while the normal handled ones were £38 i think. Both will be £45 from 31/8 according to that price checker hence the sudden accumulation of three more. I was wondering whether they were seconds or something given the price. One of them had a huge ding on the edge! Don't tell anyone but from time to time I find it quite theraputic to sharpen/flatten for a while so i didn't mind much...particularly since people seem to think the metal's better just back from the brand new edge...

I did read your article a while back actually. Rather enjoyed it - thanks for putting that sort of thing on the web - it's ridiculously useful having a lot of stuff to read as a beginner!

I presume you don't lubricate the paper you use to flatten blades, then, given the brush?

Tempted to try the horse butt strop while the exchange rate's good. How do you ensure that it's flat?

Right - back to trying to learn to flatten rough planks!

Thanks for the advice...

Ben

 

[PaulO]

I have also flattened the backs of all my L-N chisels with waterstones. The L-N factory hand flatten the backs using the scary sharp method with quite a coarse grit. Most of the chisels show some degree of convexity, particularly towards the corners at the tip, in my experience of flattening about 10 L-N chisels. There is no doubt that they work quite well out of the box, but 10 minutes flattening and then sharpening definitely improves them.

I use the Charlesworth method, having been on his excellent tool tuning course.

He uses 800,1200 and 8000/10000 grit stones. For sharpening / honing only the 800/8000 is used, with the 1200 being reserved for the flattening of chisel / plane blade backs.

The process for chisel backs is covered briefly in his books, but more thoroughly on his course. The basics being working up through the three grits using two different movements on each of the grits, flattening the stones when switching movements.

WRT flattening the stones, DC uses a sheet of float glass bonded to some corian to support the wet and dry, I have a sheet of 12mm glass just bigger than a full sheet of abrasive, bonded to some kitchen worktop, that is over the belfast sink I use for flattening stones.

The wet and dry sticks to the glass perfectly well using just water (for the purposes of stone flattening). Draw pencil lines on the stone, then rub it on the W&D until they have all gone. This assumes that you haven't started with a convex stone, but if you have been using DC's movements, you won't. Flattening the stone takes all of 20 seconds if you have the kit set up.

As to the choice of abrasive, DC favours a good quality 240 grit W&D at the moment, having abandoned the abrasive netting (can't remember why, probably the amount he gets through). He used "Mirka" paper but also recommended Hermes. Avoid the stuff you get at the sheds, or screwfix.

I have had nothing but success with DC's sharpening methods. I know there are those that think they are overkill, but if you are a perfectionist, and like a scientific approach then I think it is a good route to take. You can definitely feel / see the difference when paring between a stock L-N chisel and a "tuned" one.

 

[nimmaj]

Morning - thanks for replying!

I totally agree WRT to the chisels - particularly the corners at the tip part. They are still wonderful, though.

I've been using water to stick W&D to a small granite slab I have that's been certified flat. Any ideas where i can Mirka or Hermes W&D? The stuff I've been using is driving me potty!

Many thanks...

Ben

 

[DaveL]

Any ideas where i can Mirka or Hermes W&D? The stuff I've been using is driving me potty!

Tilgear stock Mirka abrasives, give then a ring on 0808 168 1800, they have web site, but you cannot browse and order, you need their CD rom catalogue to get the order numbers.
If you live close to them and have never visited, it is quite an interesting place, usually there are offers to part you from the hard earned, you have been warned. :twisted: :wink:

 

[nimmaj]

Oh dear - they're only about 20 mins away...

Thanks for that, though. Have been meaning to go and see them and now have an excuse!

Did they send you their ultra modern CD recently? Doesn't work on a mac :-( Not quite sure what's wrong with a nice simple website...

Cheers,

Ben

 

[DaveL]

Ben,

Er yes I have their CD. :x

Take a look here for more comments. :-s

 

[Anonymous]

Ben

I use 3M 120 grit wet and dry spray glued to a piece of MDF and this seems to last ages with all the waterstones

By the way, your LN chisels should be perfectly flat upon arrival - if not send them back!

 

[PaulO]

By the way, your LN chisels should be perfectly flat upon arrival - if not send them back!

I don't agree. They will be flat within the tolerance that LN provide them, you can improve on that tolerance at home. Same is true of their plane blades and plane soles. In particular their scary sharp hand flattening that they do to the chisels seems to introduce some convexity at the tip.

I have noticed that my latest batch of LN chisels (purchased through CHT) haven't been quite as good as they used to be, with a slight burr on the edge near the tip. I could send them back, but it is just as easy to correct them myself.

I reckon on flattening the back of a new LN in about 5-10 minutes, the last 30 quid japanese paring chisel I flattened took about 30 minutes. I have an abused vintage Marples that I have worked on for hours (on and off), and still isn't right.

Hermes W&D is available from Axminster, and the last batch of Mirka that I bought came from here:
http://www.consumablesexpress.co.uk/acatalog/WetorDry_Abrasive_Sheets_230x280mm_Pk50.html

 

[nimmaj]

Thanks for all the links and replies!

All astonishingly useful...

Cheers,

Ben