Flattening waterstones with fine sand possible?

[ali27]

Jacob, two stones cannot produce a flat surface. You need a third stone
and as has been mentioned correctly, they need to be the same hardness, grit.
What two stones can do is that if you sharpen a slightly concavity in both lengthwise,
by rubbing them together this concavity is reduced.

Sort of correct in theory but in practice you LOOK at what you are doing and correct accordingly e.g. make more effort to remove high spots

A 10 second flattening is faster. All this time and effort in removing the high spots is
not the Jacob I know

Not sure what happens in the width
of the stone.

It's entirely up to you. You are in control. You monitor progress by LOOKING

You wrote that your stone has slight convexity in the width. That is not good
as your plane iron will rock left to right ever so slightly.

Not if I don't let it! I am not a robot, are you?

Try honing a square edge on your stones, then report back. Your plane irons
are cambered

Jacob, just for trying something completely new, flatten your oil stones with some
wet and dry. Draw some lines and start flattening. After your oilstones are flat, sharpen
a single plane iron or chisel on them and come back and tell us the result.

Done it (once). Found that my nicely cambered plane blades were harder to hone. Didn't bother doing it again. No point that I could see.

25 years using an oilstone without flattening it and still having a flat surface?Hmm, first
I don't believe the stone hasn't been flattened in 25 years(Mr Schwartz can't prove that),
second thing is I am not sure I would take a woodworker seriously if he hadn't flattened his
sharpening stone in 25 years

Oh dear - you aren't taking me seriously. I'm so upset! :lol: :lol:

I mean how difficult would it be to do it once monthly?

Easier not to bother, and a waste of good stone

Am I supposed to believe this Mr has a succesful method which allowed him to sharpen
his tools for 25 years on an oilstone and keeping it flat within a thou or so? I have a hard
time believing this.

So I gather! The secret is in LOOKING at what you are doing, applying a straight edge etc and correcting your procedures to achieve the degree of flatness you feel need

Applying a straight edge? This coming from the man that refuses to use
a ruler for the ruler trick. (hammer) :lol:

I need about 20-30 seconds to flatten both stones.Takes me ten second to create a
burr on the 1000 grit stone and 15 seconds on the polishing stone to create a tiny microbevel. 5
seconnds to remove the burr. That is about one minute. No eye balling, no straightedges, excellent
result. The only disadvantage I would have compared to your method Jacob, is that I am wasting stone
whilst flattening. I try to use the whole stone, but unfortunately the edges will always wear less because
those areas are too difficult to sharpen on

 

[ali27]

To the OP ...

Stop using loose grit to flatten your waterstones! It is not only archaic, but a time-consuming and unnecessarily inefficient.

Get a diamond stone - about 325 grit (extra coarse) - and use that instead. It is quick, convenient, reliable, and will last forever if you keep it just for the waterstones.

Regards from Perth

Derek

But the 325 grit diamond stone gives a too rough finish on the polishing stone. My experience
is that this does affect the result slightly. While diamond stones do last a long time, if they
are only used with waterstones, I wonder how long do they stay perfectly flat?

Derek, I don't know how quickly you flatten your waterstones with your diamond stone,
but I only need about 20-30 seconds to flatten my 2 waterstones with loose grit. It is quite
fast and efficient.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I fail to understand how the coarseness of the surface of a waterstone, even a polishing stone, contributes in any way to the way it performs. What is relevant is that the surface is flat. Indeed, a surface with furrows may aid keeping the surface clean of swarf.

If you want a smoother surface for your polishing stone, I would not use 120 grit loose particles ....

As to speed, my diamond stone is fast enough - I use Shaptons, which are hard ceramic stones. Nevertheless, a few stokes and we are done.

No danger of contaminating any of the waterstones I have. Minimal mess. Minimal storage issues.

Once the flattening is completed, I place the diamond stone aside, ready to pick it up again. I do not need a special place to do this work. Where do you store the loose grit, and how convenient is it to use ... really?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Benchwayze]

What has the 'ruler trick' to do with using a straight-edge to test a surface?
I don't think I would want to use my straight-edge for the 'ruler trick' either! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well I don't use the ruler trick actually, but you know what I mean?

John :wink:

 

[ali27]

I fail to understand how the coarseness of the surface of a waterstone, even a polishing stone, contributes in any way to the way it performs. What is relevant is that the surface is flat. Indeed, a surface with furrows may aid keeping the surface clean of swarf.

Only thing I can say is that I do notice less good results
with a coarse surface on the final stone. I can't explain it.

If you want a smoother surface for your polishing stone, I would not use 120 grit loose particles ....

Well one thing that is nice about the loose grit is that it rapidly breaks
down into finer grit. I would guesstimate that after 5 seconds the 120 grit breaks down
to 400grit or finer and it keeps on breaking down.

As to speed, my diamond stone is fast enough - I use Shaptons, which are hard ceramic stones. Nevertheless, a few stokes and we are done.

No danger of contaminating any of the waterstones I have. Minimal mess. Minimal storage issues.

Contamination is a real danger, I have to admit, but I think I have
solved that problem(today!)

Once the flattening is completed, I place the diamond stone aside, ready to pick it up again. I do not need a special place to do this work. Where do you store the loose grit, and how convenient is it to use ... really?

Derek the loose grit is cheap. I bough 1 kg(2lbs) 220 grit for 6 euros.
The loose grit is not re-used, just wash it away. You need very little every time, less than a tsp
for flattening 3 stones. I find it quite convenient and easy to be honest. A diamond plate is the easiest,
I won't debate that.

Derek, you did not answer my question on how long a diamond plate remains flat.
Sure you will be removing pencil marks, but we both know that doesn't mean you have a flat stone.
I would guess that after some time, the middle of the diamond stone will be slighly hollow because
that is where most of the work is done in flattening waterstones as the middle is usually dished in the
latter.

 

[ali27]

What has the 'ruler trick' to do with using a straight-edge to test a surface?
I don't think I would want to use my straight-edge for the 'ruler trick' either! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well I don't use the ruler trick actually, but you know what I mean?

John :wink:

Jacob's argument is many times that what he does is fast and very easy(not using
a ruler for the ruler trick as example). He wrote that by using a straight edge he knows
where the high spots are and then he can sharpen on those spots/areas which will bring
flattness back. My argument is that spending 10 seconds flattening a waterstone which
gives guaranteed flattness is a better, quicker and easier method than eyeballing wear
on the stone and checking it with a straightedge.

He himself said that his stone was slightly concave in the length and convex in the width.
My waterstones are flat every time I start using them because I use a simple and very
effective way of getting a flat surface every time.

I could get a sharp edge on my tools without ever using a jig and without flattening my
waterstones for decades probably, but the final result will be less good. Not really square,
less sharp, rounded bevel which could lead to too high of an angle etc... Every concession
you do, leads to less performance.

There is a reason why woodwork experts like Rob Cosman, David Charlesworth flatten their stones
before use every time. Rob Cosman doesn't use a jig, but flattens the stones before use every time.

 

[bridger]

Jacob, two stones cannot produce a flat surface.

here.s a pretty good write up:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/archiv ... 48019.html

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Derek, you did not answer my question on how long a diamond plate remains flat.
Sure you will be removing pencil marks, but we both know that doesn't mean you have a flat stone.
I would guess that after some time, the middle of the diamond stone will be slighly hollow because
that is where most of the work is done in flattening waterstones as the middle is usually dished in the
latter.

Flat. That is the thing about a diamond stone. They are flat. Forever!

Which is more than I could say for the substratum used for loose grit. :lol:

A 10" DMT Extra Coarse diamond stone is a once-off purchase as long as you dedicate it to waterstone maintenance and not use it to abrade steel. I started out with one of these, and used it for a few years without any issues. I only changed to a Shapton diamond plate as I could not resist an absolute bargain at a sale. If I did not have the Shapton I would still be using the DMT.

So how did you finally overcome the contamination problem with the loose grit (something, I should add, that is never an issue with a diamond plate)?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ali27]

Derek, you did not answer my question on how long a diamond plate remains flat.
Sure you will be removing pencil marks, but we both know that doesn't mean you have a flat stone.
I would guess that after some time, the middle of the diamond stone will be slighly hollow because
that is where most of the work is done in flattening waterstones as the middle is usually dished in the
latter.

Flat. That is the thing about a diamond stone. They are flat. Forever!

Which is more than I could say for the substratum used for loose grit. :lol:

A 10" DMT Extra Coarse diamond stone is a once-off purchase as long as you dedicate it to waterstone maintenance and not use it to abrade steel. I started out with one of these, and used it for a few years without any issues. I only changed to a Shapton diamond plate as I could not resist an absolute bargain at a sale. If I did not have the Shapton I would still be using the DMT.

So how did you finally overcome the contamination problem with the loose grit (something, I should add, that is never an issue with a diamond plate)?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, the plate on which the diamond particles are embedded will remain flat for
a life time. Despite diamond's incredible hardness and toughness it too will abrade.
Think about it, your plane blade is much harder than the wood that you are planing, but
you still need to frequently sharpen your blades because the edge loses its shape, sharpness.

Now this is something you know I am sure of, but I am guessing that you think that the wear on
the diamond particles will be so little that any decrease in flattness will be minimal. I guess
a good way of finding out would be to flatten a waterstone with a brand new diamond plate and
then check with a surface plate how flat the stone has become and then repeat the same thing
after a half year or so.

I solved the contamination issue, by using no pressure at all. Just let the grit do its work. I used
to use a lot of pressure when flattening my waterstones on a diamond plate or on sandpaper. I
stopped using the sandpaper when I saw that particles of the sandpaper would get stuk in my
waterstones. So when I started using the plate glass with loose grit I used light pressure, which
I thought was no pressure and got contamination. So yesterday I used again the loose grit, but now
with zero pressure on the stone, just moving it around. This created a perfect flat face on the stone
without any contamination. Derek I think your very hard Shapton stones would be ever better suited
for the loose grit than my Bester stones which are medium hard. Shapton themselves make
a steel plate that is designed for flattening waterstones with the use of loose powder.

I use floatglass as a substrate for the loose grit. I use self adhesive polyester film on the glass
so that the abrasives don't actually abrade the glass. I checked many times on my surface plate
with a 1 thou feeler gauge and it could not get under the stone in any area. So the result is flatness
of 1 thou or better. I wish I had a half thou feeler gauge to check if that could get underneath the
stone.

 

[ali27]

I made a video on how I do this. It's obvious I won't ever make
a living as a camera man, my apologies for the rather poor quality.

http://tinypic.com/r/95qwhv/5

I couldn't embed the video unfortunately.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Ali, that video of yours convinces me to avoid loose grit!

1. Too much preparation.
2. Too much mess - is the loose grit going down the drain? I was advised not to let slurry go down the drain - which I tend to ignore - but the loose grit would have me worried.

I have running water in my workshop. I have a dedicated sharpening centre. I think one would need a dedicated sharpening centre for loose grit. I flatten my stones constantly - half the sharpening takes place on the back of the blade. The stones need to be flat for that task. Running back-and-forth does not appeal, even less so with the amount of work you do.

Here is my set up. The DMT is on the far left, with the Shapton diamond stone alongside it. Three stones on the right (1000/5000/12000 Shaptons) ..

Scribble across the top of a stone with a pencil, wet under the tap, rub-rub-rub with the diamond stone, rinse under tap. Done.

No contest as far as I am concerned. Let's hear from others.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ali27]

Ali, that video of yours convinces me to avoid loose grit!

1. Too much preparation.
2. Too much mess - is the loose grit going down the drain? I was advised not to let slurry go down the drain - which I tend to ignore - but the loose grit would have me worried.

I have running water in my workshop. I have a dedicated sharpening centre. I think one would need a dedicated sharpening centre for loose grit. I flatten my stones constantly - half the sharpening takes place on the back of the blade. The stones need to be flat for that task. Running back-and-forth does not appeal, even less so with the amount of work you do.

Here is my set up. The DMT is on the far left, with the Shapton diamond stone alongside it. Three stones on the right (1000/5000/12000 Shaptons) ..

Scribble across the top of a stone with a pencil, wet under the tap, rub-rub-rub with the diamond stone, rinse under tap. Done.

No contest as far as I am concerned. Let's hear from others.

Regards from Perth

Derek

The preparation is basically just putting a glass plate on your bench
and sprinkle some powder on it and start the flattening. That's 15 seconds
at best. I usually keep my glass plate on my bench, so I only need to sprinkle
some loose grit on it, so 5 seconds preparation. That cannot be ''too much
preparation''.

It can be messier, but it doesn't need to. Using very little amount of water and
the loose grit just moves around on the glass plate. There is no mess. When you
are finished you can just put the glass for a few seconds in a half filled plastic
tray in order for the loose grit to be washed away. Same thing for the waterstones.
Takes 20 seconds for both at best. That's it. You don't need running water at all.
The loose grit particles are relatively very heavy so they immediately sink to the bottom
of the plastic tray.

I usually don't draw lines on the stone because it is pretty clear when the stone is flat.
The whole thing would have been much quicker if I wouldn't have had
the camera in my left hand.

The loose grit flattening is easy, accurate, quite fast and CHEAP! The loose grit is
always aggresive because you just sprinkle some new powder. It is much better
than using wet and dry which I have done in the past. The PSA 3m sanding films
would be better, but they are too expensive for me.

A diamond flattening stone from my experience is a good way to flatten your
waterstones. They do become substantially slower after some use and have
a tendency to stick to the waterstones. I am not sure how long the surface of
the diamond particles remain flat, still no answer on that question. It's definitely
better than using wet and dry IMO.