Flat chisel backs?

[gidon]

I'm (still) after some new chisels - my Footprint chisels have done me proud - but I want to move them into my DIY toolbox.
So was looking at the Ashley Iles bevel edge chisels or the LN's. I think the LN's are really too much for me to justify at the moment which brings to my question:
The AI chisels get pretty well reviewed here, apart from their hollow ground backs. I've spoken to classichandtools.com and he confirms this is a real problem with these chisels and he gets lots back. I've also spoken to Ray Iles who says this hollow grind is deliberate and you don't need the whole back flat - easier to polish the important bit with a hollow grind. Of course the argument for completely polished backs is the idea of registering the chisel back correctly for paring etc. So I can see both arguments but would be interested to hear people's thoughts - I don't really want to go for the AI chisels and spend forever flattening the backs. My Footprints have got polished backs (which took a long time at the time IIRC) - but really can't imagine for woodworking tolerences, registering error due to an uneven back is ever going to amount to more than user error?
classichandtools.com also reckon the Sorby chisels are a better buy - but there are mixed reports about them here.
Any others I should be considering (I don't like the London Pattern handles which rules the Two Cherries out for me.)
Cheers
Gidon

 

[Chris Knight]

Gidon,
My limited experience with modern Sorbys (corner chisel plus a couple of carving chisels) is that the steel is pretty indifferent quality - too soft, whereas my also limited experience (some carving chisels) with Ashley Iles is that the steel is pretty good.

 

[Alf]

Ooo, into the DIY toolbox eh? Posh. :wink:

The trouble with Sorby's is variability. Woodworker A (let's call him, oh, Noah - probably a boat builder...) gets some that are done well and raves about them. Woodworker B (Joseph is a good woodworkerish name) then gets some and finds they have all the edge-holding ability of a Dairylea slice, and says as much. Noah doesn't understand; their just great. Pish, says Joe, don't touch them with a 10 cubit pole. Confusion rains, as does the water on poor Noah, but that's another story. So as far as the Sorbys go, I say "D'you feel lucky?" and also "Go on, punk, may my day", but only one comment is really relevant to the discussion at hand. Go on, you guess which one... I will say for Sorby though, when the weedy thin ferrule on my corner chisel (yes, I made that mistake too, Chris) split, they replaced the chisel promptly and without fuss. So I got to hone the blasted thing all over again... ](*,)

Anyway, presumably Ray Iles chisels are also hollow backed? And anyway you don't like the London Pattern handles, which is fair enough. Not sure I do much. But then we are woodworkers and could alter handles... Although the Kirchens in the set are carver handles, aren't they? Erm, how about those Swiss Pfeils that I mentioned in another thread far, far away?

Cheers, Alf

 

[Chris Knight]

I will say for Sorby though, when the weedy thin ferrule on my corner chisel (yes, I made that mistake too, Chris) split, they replaced the chisel promptly and without fuss. So I got to hone the blasted thing

They also resharpened (FOC) my corner chisel when I messed it up trying to sharpen it before I knew how

 

[MikeW]

Hi Gidon,

I fall into the Noah camp--my Sorby paring and sash mortice chisels have been very good. The paring chisels needed to be ground back a smidge before the harder steel was at the tip. This (loss of temper during manufacture at the tip) is a problem that has seemed to hit Sorby more than others. I would say I ground an 1/8" off.

That said, hollow backs have been one of the hallmarks of Japanese chisels for, oh, eons. I personally wouldn't hesitate to get the Ashleys and forego needing to flatten the entire back. With a hollow grind, it just speeds up the process--lessmetal to remove--if one needs to at all.

Well, back to my corner...

Take care, Mike

 

[Jarviser]

Hi Gidon,

This (loss of temper during manufacture at the tip) is a problem that has seemed to hit Sorby more than others. I would say I ground an 1/8" off.

That's interesting you said that - I always thought my Sorbys (with the octagonal handles) were a bit soft, despite the obvious hardness testing marks. Then of course the marks are half way up the blade. They have only been honed so far - Tormek time this week I think....

 

[devonwoody]

To Gidon

My Kirchen chisels purchased from Axminster (the set of bevel edge ) have given me satisfaction except the bevels need grinding off if wanting to use for dovetails. They sharpen very well on my cheap set of diamond stones and usually only need around 4 rubs on the medium and extra fineplate to return to sharpness. I did flatten the backs of the whole set when purchased.

 

[Alf]

The paring chisels needed to be ground back a smidge before the harder steel was at the tip. This (loss of temper during manufacture at the tip) is a problem that has seemed to hit Sorby more than others.

There I go, forgetting that irritating fact again. I need to write it on a Post-it and put it right on the front of the monitor. #-o That could well be the trouble, Noah, er, Mike. So the splitting ferrule and the variable quality of the boxwood handles might be worth mentioning in lieu... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[SimonA]

I have to say Gidon I have nearly a full set of Ashley Ilses chisels and I love them......they do keep a very good edge too and I haven't found any problems with the backs of the blade when using them.

SimonA

 

[gidon]

Thanks folks - some very interesting replies for me to ponder. I'm definately veering towards the AI's.
Alf - the Ray Iles chisels are AI chisels with his handles (London Pattern - Boxwood). (Oh and that's not paint tin lid lifting DIY - more door lock fitting etc DIY - I already have another set of chisels for those really grotty jobs .)
Mike - the AI aren't hollowed like the Japanese chisels - they are (a little) concave along their length.
The frustrating thing is the AI's are on back order of at least a few weeks from the factory and from classichandtools.com. And they were going to be a birthday pressie for tomorrow too . Anywhere else stock them does anyone know?
Cheers
Gidon

 

[Anonymous]

Gidopn

I was bought a set of 8 AI chsiels after a cancer op a while back to 'cheer me up'

I flattened the backs in about 6 hours - across the whole of the back. Not had to touch the backs since.

What can I say about them? Well, the Kirschen stay ion a drawer now and the japanese chisels are sulking

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2550&highlight=ashley

 

[gidon]

Thanks Tony - it was your review and one in pop wood - that got me interested in the chisels. It's that back flattening that I'm not keen on - if I get them I think I'll keep the hollow back. If it took you 6 hours with your setup - it'd take me at least 3 times that!
Cheers
Gidon

 

[Anonymous]

To be honest, your post hss reminded me that they do a few sizes that were out of stock when I placed the order. Santa now has an order for the 3 sizes I don't already have

 

[gidon]

Tony - I think you should be well covered with that lot!

Well the deed is done. I've ordered a set of AI chisels direct from them - they quoted a couple of weeks. I went for a set of 6: 1/8, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, 3/4, and 1".

Thanks for the advice.

Cheers

Gidon

 

[devonwoody]

Ooooooooooooooooohh 7 hours sharpening???????????? or flattening.

 

[gidon]

Nah - 10 mins a chisel MAX.
Cheers
Gidon

 

[JesseM]

Ooo, into the DIY toolbox eh? Posh. :wink:
I will say for Sorby though, when the weedy thin ferrule on my corner chisel (yes, I made that mistake too, Chris) split, they replaced the chisel promptly and without fuss. So I got to hone the blasted thing all over again... ](*,)
Cheers, Alf

Just out of curiosity how did you go about getting them to replace the handle. I have sorby 5/16" mortise chisel with a split near the ferrule myself. It turns out I have not even used it yet either.

 

[Alf]

Let me think... I think I rang up the supplier who gave me Sorby's number, gave them a bell and they gave me an address to send it back to. Not a problem on this side of the 'lantic, not so good on yours. :-k Give the dealer a call first, I reckon.

Cheers, Alf

 

[JesseM]

Let me think... I think I rang up the supplier who gave me Sorby's number, gave them a bell and they gave me an address to send it back to. Not a problem on this side of the 'lantic, not so good on yours. :-k Give the dealer a call first, I reckon.
Cheers, Alf

Thanks!