Fitting a face vice?

[woden]

I'm fitting a Record 52 1/2 E quick release unto what passes for a bench in the garage. I just have a few queries before I go ahead...

I was going to use an inch thick oak plank to make the jaws from. I was thinking of just using one layer for the inner jaw but laminating two layers for the outside jaw. This would mean I'd loose 3" from the jaw opening. As the jaws open to a max. of 13" inches would this loss be acceptable cutting the max. opening down to 10"?

I will be attaching the vice below the level of the bench top as I plan for the wooden 'sacrificial' jaws to be taller and so flush with the bench top. I'm gonna laminate on a lip on the outside of each wooden jaw to hide the top of the vice casting. This will ensure there's no gap between the bench and the beginning of the inner vice jaw.

How high can the wooden jaws reach above the cast jaws before clamping pressure is affected? Would I get away with an inch or should I restrict myself to 1/2"? On that point I was also going to extend the sides of the wooden jaws an inch past the cast jaws on each side - is this Okay?

I'll be laminating two layers - one for the face and one for the lip - for the inner jaw and three - two for the face and another for the lip - for the outer jaw. Is it okay to laminate boards with rough sawn faces - this isn't furniture grade joinery so I'm not concerned about invisible glue lines - or would this leave a weak joint? Do surfaces for gluing always have to be planed smooth?

As the holes in the cast jaws for attaching the wooden jaws have been tapped I was just going to use machine screws to hold the wooden ones in place. Will just two of these for each jaw provide an adequate fixing?

I read something about there needing to be a three degree taper from the top of the jaws to the bottom. Is this really necessary - or is it just being fussy - and what's the best way of doing this?

Finally, I'm going to bolt the vice to the bench - with the heads of the bolts sunk below bench top level of course - but I've seen plenty of benchs where a heavy vice like this one seems to have been screwed in place. Are coach screws adequate for heavy vices? Anyway, I can't go down this route as the spacer block for the underside of the bench can't be glued in place due to the bench plank having been painted at one time in its life (before it was a work bench i might add).

All advice will be much appreciated.

 

[Lord Nibbo]

First thing the 3 deg angle, your new vice will already have this angle so just fit flat boards to it and it will be correct.

Here is a pic of one I done earlier :lol:

I cant see any problems with losing a few inches, I've rarely used any vice to the measurements you will have. But I stand to be overruled.


If planing is a problem you could at least just sand the boards before gluing, but for strength I would reccomend planing it.

 

[woden]

Hi, Lord Nibbo. D'you know it's remarkable that you're the first to repply with a pic of that vice you've fitted. Thing is, just before posting, I'd read through that very thread on you making your new work bench - very impressive job too. Now my craftsmanship isn't going to be anywhere near as good looking but the thread did give me the inspiration to at least do a half middling job.

First thing the 3 deg angle, your new vice will already have this angle so just fit flat boards to it and it will be correct.

Actually the vice is pretty old. I picked it up on ebay and the tapped holes in the jaws are imperial but yet it's still quite modern in its design. So I'm guessing it must date from around the 70s?! But yeah, I've just been looking at the vice again and have noticed the angled jaws. There about 4" in height and when closed the top is tight but there's a 2.5mm gap at the bottom. This must provide for around the three degree angle.

Here is a pic of one I done earlier :lol: ...

Lovely bit of workmanship there. Tell me, I think I noticed that your vice is a no. 53, how much bigger is the 53 than the 52 1/2? Are the jaws 10" or something and does it open further?

Finally, how much higher than the cast jaws did you go with the wooden jaw/bench top - 1/2"?

 

[woden]

There's another bit of advice I could do with. I'm going to drill the holes for the bolts through from the underside of the bench. This means that I won't know where to locate the forstner bit on the other side until I break through. However, if I break through when drilling the 12mm hole for the bolt I'll have nothing to centre the forstner bit on. How do I get around this dilemma?

If I drill the the recesses for the bolt heads first with the forstner bit the only way I'll be able to hit the centre of these with the 12mm bit is if I drill from the top down. But then this will likely result in me being out somewhat on the underside and so missing the holes in the vice jaw casting.

Would a way around this be to drill through from the underside with the 12mm bit until the point of the bit just begins to break the surface? Would this then still provide enough grip to centre the forstner bit when drilling from the top? :?


Also, like Lord Nibbo, I'd like to take the vice apart so that I only need to work with the inner jaw when doing the attachment to the bench. Problem is there's a pin through the inner most end of the screw that's stuck tight and unless I can remove it I won't get the screw and vice bars out of the inner casting. Is the only solution brute force and ignorance - ie. hammer it until it shifts - the pin that is.

 

[Scrums]

Just to enrage any purists out there - I use a 52 1/2e as well, but I've dispensed with using wood on the face in order to gain full width opening. All I do is 'spray tack' some foam laminate flooring stuff on the jaws every so often - works for me.

......and I also have one for sale, but that must go under a FOR SALE banner, so forget I said that.

Chris.

 

[woden]

The only thing about not using wood on at least the outer face is that you've nothing to put a hole in for a bench dog. Mind, this probably only applies to the older versions like mine which don't have the little built in dog.

The wooden jaws can also give you extra width and height across the jaw face even if they do detract from the max. opening. The reason why I prefer say a 52 1/2 over the traditional vice is that you get a quick release mechanism that the latter lacks.

 

[dickm]

There's another bit of advice I could do with. I'm going to drill the holes for the bolts through from the underside of the bench. .

Any reason why you are using bolts? I've always used coach screws (ginormous woodscrews for anyone not familiar with them) and despite much abuse, I've never had a vice come loose. And they only require access from below.

 

[DaveL]

If you look here you will see the bench I made, with a pair of record vices fitted. I used offcuts of the ash the bench was made from to line the jaws.

 

[woden]

Any reason why you are using bolts? ...

The spacer blocks I'll be using between the bench top and vice can't be glued in place (the underside of the bench is painted and bits of these have been painted as well - this won't be pleasing on the eye ) As there'll be no glue only the tips of the screws would be holding the vice up - most of the screws would be through lose blocks. On the other hand, bolts right through the bench top will hold up the vice and the unglued spacer blocks.

Dick, do you have any thoughts on how I'll get around the problem of drilling from one side and using a forstner bit from the other without either leaving nothing to centre the forstner on or getting the holes misaligned if I drill both from the same side?

If you look here you will see the bench I made, with a pair of record vices fitted. I used offcuts of the ash the bench was made from to line the jaws.

As with Lord Nibbo's thread I also read through yours in researching this. In fact it was your method of making the wooden vice jaws that opened my eyes to the fact that I didn't need a router to get the jaw to overhang the top of the casting. Using the 78 you planed straight through instead of creating a recess for the vice with a router. In the end mine will look similar only I'll use a slightly different method - laminating - to get there.

How thick is the outside jaw on your face vice? Not including the lip over the vice that is.

Finally, the Record 52 1/2 E vice I have looks identical to the ones on your bench. Do you have any idea how old these 'models' are? I'm thinking possibly the 70s?! :?

 

[DaveL]

How thick is the outside jaw on your face vice? Not including the lip over the vice that is.

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Oh thats not quite how I remember it, good job I went out and measured them.

Face vice has very meaty 2 1/4" while end vice is only 15/16" and its the end vice that now has the dog holes in, not planned that one very well.
I use dogs on the end vise but have not needed them on the face vice, I only drilled the holes when they were required.

Finally, the Record 52 1/2 E vice I have looks identical to the ones on your bench. Do you have any idea how old these 'models' are? I'm thinking possibly the 70s?! :?

Well I cannot date them but both the 52 1/2 and the 53 were second hand look here to see how I came by them. The 70's sounds a bit new, there were vices like this on the benches at school and I left in '71.

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Dick, do you have any thoughts on how I'll get around the problem of drilling from one side and using a forstner bit from the other without either leaving nothing to centre the forstner on or getting the holes misaligned if I drill both from the same side?
Do you have any idea how old these 'models' are? I'm thinking possibly the 70s?! :?

Yes it is a 53, my guess is 60's ish, it was red rusty when I bought it.

The lip above the vice is about 1/2"

Drilling ..... Drill your hole to take the bolt, then make a plug to fill the hole not to tight but just snug then drill using your forstner, then knock out what remains of the plug.

 

[DaveL]

Thinking about your hole drilling, prompted by Lord Nibbo's post, you could guide the forstner with a bit of scrap.

Find a ~1/2" scrap board, mdf, ply or real wood, drill a hole though it with the forstner. Drill the bolt hole though the bench, place the predrilled board over the hole and centre bye eye, clamp in place, drill counter bore with the forstner guided by its outside edge, not the centre.

 

[dickm]

The spacer blocks I'll be using between the bench top and vice can't be glued in place (the underside of the bench is painted and bits of these have been painted as well - this won't be pleasing on the eye ) As there'll be no glue only the tips of the screws would be holding the vice up - most of the screws would be through lose blocks. On the other hand, bolts right through the bench top will hold up the vice and the unglued spacer blocks.

Ah, I see. I think I'd be inclined to clean ups the blocks and underside of the bench, and glue the blocks into place. It could well be more rigid than bolts through what are effectively thick washers?
But if you are going to use bolts, one other way of lining up would be to drill the bolt holes in the blocks with them loose, then line up everything with blocks in place to mark the position on the benchtop. Drill a starting hole, take it all apart, then drill through to the appropriate depth. Then drill the rest of the way with a fine, 1/8 inch or less, drill, and use this to locate the drill from above? If the benchtop is not that thick, an ordinary drill bit should do. If not, then the other suggestions may be your best bet.
But I'd still be inclined to glue those blocks in place....

 

[Scrums]

If it's of any interest I bought my current 52 1/2e brand new from Axminster in circa 1986....about £60 ?

Chris.

 

[woden]

Face vice has very meaty 2 1/4"...

Is that width excluding the lip over the top of the outer jaw casting? Just wondering Dave, why did you make the jaw so thick if you weren't intending to put holes for bench dogs in it? Is there some other advantage to having a very thick outer jaw or is it just aesthetics - well I think the beafy jaws look good anyway.

Well I cannot date them but both the 52 1/2 and the 53 were second hand look here to see how I came by them. ...

Yeah, my 52 1/2 E looks identical to that one you rescued from the skip - why do I never see anything like that down the dump ? Mine even has the same partly worn off yellow sticker. Tell me, is the 53 much bigger than the 52 1/2?

The lip above the vice is about 1/2"

Is there a reason why you settled on 1/2"? I'm just wondering if you could get away with much more to make the jaws even deeper. I can't see why not as the traditional vices always seem to have several inches of wooden jaw above the top of the casting. Could the same be applied to a 52 1/2 with maybe 1 or 2 inches of wooden jaw above the metal jaw?

Drilling ..... Drill your hole to take the bolt, then make a plug to fill the hole not to tight but just snug then drill using your forstner, then knock out what remains of the plug.

Find a ~1/2" scrap board, mdf, ply or real wood, drill a hole though it with the forstner. Drill the bolt hole though the bench, place the predrilled board over the hole and centre bye eye, clamp in place, drill counter bore with the forstner guided by its outside edge, not the centre.

...Then drill the rest of the way with a fine, 1/8 inch or less, drill, and use this to locate the drill from above?

Thanks for the great suggestions. I think I'll go with Dave's idea to use a bit of pre-drilled scrap, clamped in place, to guide the forstner bit from its outside edge.

I'd originally thought of doing something similar to yours, dick, by drilling from the underside with an auger bit for the bolt hole. Then just on reaching the top of the bench I'd stop with just the point of the lead screw just poking through. This 'pin prick' would show me where to centre the forstner but probably wouldn't have removed enough wood for the forstner bit not to centre properly.

Having said all that I'm now thinking that maybe cleaning the blocks and underside of the bench up for glueing might be best. Hmm... might have to bring those 12mm bolts back to the shop and exchange them for coach bolts. Oh well, I'll have a think on it. :?

If it's of any interest I bought my current 52 1/2e brand new from Axminster in circa 1986....about £60 ?

Just out of interest, do you have any idea how much a new Record 52 1/2E would set you back now, that is if they're still made.

 

[Wanlock Dod]

Woden,

As regards your drilling problem, why not just drill up from underneath (right the way through), then enlarge the bit at the top side to take the bolt head with a router (or possibly even a mallet and chisel :shock: )

Dod

 

[Paul Chapman]

Hi Woden,

As you are planning to make your wooden faces quite thick, I would be inclined to drill the moveable jaw face and fit a Veritas bench dog. Both the Record #52D vices I have fitted to my bench have built-in dogs, but I have a light-weight Record #57 fitted to an auxiliary bench top, which I clamp in a Workmate when I need more bench space. Provided you drill the wooden jaw as close to the screw as possible to stop it racking in use, it works well and is very useful

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Woden wrote

The lip above the vice is about 1/2"

Is there a reason why you settled on 1/2"? I'm just wondering if you could get away with much more to make the jaws even deeper. I can't see why not as the traditional vices always seem to have several inches of wooden jaw above the top of the casting. Could the same be applied to a 52 1/2 with maybe 1 or 2 inches of wooden jaw above the metal jaw?

There was some asthetics, but my worktop is 4" thick, I didn't want to add any blocks to the thickness to lower the vice, and keeping it at about 1/2" would reduce any racking vertically, and just imagine the strain of the top edges when you tighten the vice :shock: [/quote]

 

[woden]

As regards your drilling problem, why not just drill up from underneath (right the way through), then enlarge the bit at the top side to take the bolt head with a router...

Problem is I don't yet have a router. It and a table saw are floating right at the top of my 'to purchase' list. Ah well, something else I'll have to do a bit of research into to find one best suited to my needs.

...(or possibly even a mallet and chisel :shock: )

On aesthetic grounds I'd prefer to have round recesses as the bolt heads are round. That and the fact that my chiselin' skills leave a lot to be desired.

As you are planning to make your wooden faces quite thick, I would be inclined to drill the moveable jaw face and fit a Veritas bench dog....

Yeah that's the reason why I'm making the jaw so thick - to allow me to put in a bench dog at some point. That's a handy little auxiliary bench you've got there. As for drilling the hole for the dog in line with the screw, how do you cope with the problem of racking if you've two dogs - one at each end of the jaw? With this arrangement are you always supposed to use both dogs at the same time only on objects wide enough so as to avoid racking. It's just that if the 52 1/2 was strong enough to resist racking with only one dog in use but not aligned with the vice screw I could then go down the more versatile route of two dog holes - one at each end. Any thoughts? :?

The other thing I'd like to know about dogs - the bench type that is - do they all have similar dimensions? Well, the round ones that is. Is there a set width and depth of hole that you need to drill that will accomodate all the round dogs commercially available? Or does it vary from manufacturer to manufacturer? Also, where a dog hole has been drilled right through a surface what keeps the dog from falling out - isn't it a sort of spring mechanism that I've seen on the sides of dogs pictured in catalogues?

...and keeping it at about 1/2" would reduce any racking vertically, and just imagine the strain of the top edges when you tighten the vice :shock:

Would vertical racking be much of a problem if I went for 1" above the cast jaws instead of 1/2"? Also, given the taper of the jaws in the 52 1/2, if you went for to much height with the wooden jaws wouldn't this affect clamping at the bottom of the vice - too much height and you'd surely be left with a gap at the bottom that would never close.

 

[Paul Chapman]

Yeah that's the reason why I'm making the jaw so thick - to allow me to put in a bench dog at some point. That's a handy little auxiliary bench you've got there. As for drilling the hole for the dog in line with the screw, how do you cope with the problem of racking if you've two dogs - one at each end of the jaw? With this arrangement are you always supposed to use both dogs at the same time only on objects wide enough so as to avoid racking. It's just that if the 52 1/2 was strong enough to resist racking with only one dog in use but not aligned with the vice screw I could then go down the more versatile route of two dog holes - one at each end. Any thoughts? :?

The other thing I'd like to know about dogs - the bench type that is - do they all have similar dimensions? Well, the round ones that is. Is there a set width and depth of hole that you need to drill that will accomodate all the round dogs commercially available? Or does it vary from manufacturer to manufacturer? Also, where a dog hole has been drilled right through a surface what keeps the dog from falling out - isn't it a sort of spring mechanism that I've seen on the sides of dogs pictured in catalogues?

Hi Woden,

Why not drill 3 holes in the vice jaw? That way you can use the two outer ones when you want to grip wider stock and the centre one for narrow stock. Although, having said that, provided you have at least two rows of dog holes in the bench you only really need one in the vice for 99% of clamping operations. Despite your vice being a sturdy one, I would still drill one of the holes near to the screw because I reckon you will get racking if you don't.

You need to drill the dog holes all the way through so that you can push the dogs up from underneath. For that reason you will need to drill just slightly to the side of the screw on the vice.

The Veritas dogs are the best commercially available ones in my opinion. They use a length of spring steel to grip the hole so they won't fall out. There are two lengths available and they also do a holdfast which all use the same size hole (19mm). Details are here http://www.brimarc.com/home.php3?page=p ... c=C_106_14 The bench pups are also very useful.

Cheers :wink:

Paul