Firedoor newbie question

[milkman]

It is possible to conform to the UK regs on firedoors using a stile, rail and panel design? For instance using heavier wood?

A friend wants a door that will either copy or mimic the original 1920's style doors in his place

I suspect the answer is no but I had to check!

Thanks
Marko

 

[Scrit]

Hi Marko and welcome

I've never made fire doors, but I have machined glazing cut-outs in them to convert FD30's to FDG30's, so here goes:

To be classed as a fire door with performance meeting BS.476 Part 22 (which is the testing spec.) doors are normally made by specialist manufacturers and have the appropriate rating sticker applied. To meet the standard the door design must be subjected to a burn test which isn't really feasible for a one-off.

If you don't have to comply rigidly with Building Regs (Part E?) and have a certified door then the construction of fire doors is specified in BS.459 Part 3. Basically this calls for a 30 minute fire check or fire resisting door to be about 40 to 45mm thick fitted into a frame with 25mm deep door stops and the gap between the door and the sides/top must not exceed 3mm. Fire officers round here used to allow you 6mm beneath doors at one time providing a hardwood threshold was fitted. Any gaps between the door frame/casing and masonry must be filled with intumescent materials such as mineral wool and sealed with intumescent caulk and there may be further requirements for fitting such as using fire-rated (Briton-pattern) closer, intumescent and/or smoke seal strips and fire rated hinges as well. I think that spec. makes it almost impossible to make your own frame and panel door to meet any sort of regulations or insurance requirement and is probably why you'll sometimes see fire doors with applied mouldings to give the visual impression of a frame and panel door

Scrit

 

[milkman]

Thats very helpful, thanks for the info.

 

[Corset]

I am a letting agent by trade and fire doors are a big issue at the moment due to the new Houses in Multiple Occupation regulation. Even the council seem to be struggling with variations and as a result are being even lessflexible than normal :roll: . There was talk that older doors would be accepted with a specialist coating but i have yet to find a suppler of this although i am sure it exists (possible alterantive) but i think its a sorry day for decorative doors in modern houses. Many of our victorian houses doors are now off to the scarp heap/reclamation yard. To make matters worse the landlords are also ripping the old arcitrave off as it is quicker to replace the frame than rout out etc. It saddens me

 

[Shadowfax]

Hi Milkman
Scrit is spot on with this. The only door that can be accepted as a fire-resisting door is one made and tested to an approved standard by a manufacturor that has submitted the door type for test under BS 476 Part 22.
However, they also make panelled doors (at least that is how they appear). But they are more expensive, of course.
Strictly speaking the only doors that pass the test are ones that have been tested with the door and frame as a "door set". This means many of the so-called fire-resisting doors in the real world would never conform because they cannot be tested on site where they have been fitted in an existing frame.
If you need a panelled fire door, ask around. They do exist.
It is also possible to upgrade a door using intumescent paint but this must be applied strictly in accordance with the makers instructions or it will not conform to the standard required, and can look terrible if badly applied!
Personally, I do not like this approach but it can be done. You would need to ask companies like Envirograph, for example. They make these sorts of things.
Hope you can get it sorted.

Cheers.

SF

 

[Scrit]

There was talk that older doors would be accepted with a specialist coating but I have yet to find a suppler of this although I am sure it exists (possible alterantive) but i think its a sorry day for decorative doors in modern houses.

There are some specialised intumescent paints and clear (actually semi-milky) overfinishes which used to be required by certain insurance companies (and quite possibly by the licencing authorities) on night clubs, bars, etc., but the door and frame have to be sprayed as the stuff cannot be applied any other way without looking like a dog's dinner. Not done any doors like that for a while so I couldn't say whether the people I've had it off before are still going, but I'll look out the maker and post the details. I've known fire inspectors in the past who were dead set against the painting of fire doors on the grounds that a fire-resisting door painted with an inflamable coating, like gloss paint, wasn't really a fire-check door any more, more a "Fire Door" if you catch my drift.....

Personally, I'm keeping well away from fire doors at present as the direct conflict between the Building Regs and the Disability Discrimination Act in conjunction with the new fire inspection regime (The Regulatory Reform [Fire Safety] Order 2005 - which comes in on 1st October) it's a complete minefield! Rather you than me.

For anyone interested this brilliant piece of legislative (in)competence means that if you have a door closer (required on a fire check door) which meets the requirements of the Building Regs it's closing strength is too great for a disabled person in a wheelchair to be able to operate the door unaided - a breach of the Disability Discrimination Act.......... You couldn't make it up, could you?

Scrit

 

[ProShop]

looking through the major door manufacturers catalogues, the only doors fire rated that I can find are the ply faced with various opening apertures for fire check glass or georgian wired., plus there are some nice looking ones with 4 and 6 panels, in both smooth and grain finish which might be just what you are looking for

Most of these doors are made as a sandwich with a type of plasterboard as the filling. but they are fire rated


Hope this helps

 

[Anonymous]

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[Noel]

Hey Scrit, thanks for all that. I've been looking for a fire door for ages and all I can find is dopey looking sheeted ply affairs or similar with the poxy mouldings stuck on.
We're not as stict over here with all the regulatory nonsense but it is difficult to find a fire door that matches existing doors (Vic Pine). Was thinking about veneering one of the dopey ones mentioned above with something that will match and mill and apply mouldings.

Noel (Paddy has gone down to the pub)

 

[Pecker]

This is a can of worms.
To explain. I was the maintenance supervisor for a large NHS trust. I was also a Site Manager for a school. I now run my own carpentry business. I maintain 3 nursing homes. I am considered to be fairly knowlegable in this field.

Two weeks ago I had a query relating to fire regs on doors following a fire officers visit to a nursing home.

To put it in a nutshall, it comes down to the inspectors judgement at the time. There are about 7 different sets of regulations that can/do/will/could apply. Following the large fire in Scotland last year, in October of this year further new regs come into play.

These are in addition to building regs.
Technically any solid wood door will meet a 30 min fire rating. It is THAT clear - though you have to search for it. BUT...

In Houses of mutiple occupancy (HMO's) rules state that doors must be certified as fire doors. This usually includes the main front door, and kitchen area. They must have three hinges fitted etc. In night clubs, hospitals and various other places they must also have fire retardant paint on them. They must also be fitted with a self closing device irrespective of which building they are fitted.

Four points.
1) It is now illegal for anyone other than the manufacturer to make any opening in them - say for glass. Letterboxes are forbidden.

2) Legally, there must be intumescent paper fitted behind hinges, locks, and handles and closers and intumescent strip fitted around the glass. (there is some confusion here, it has always been accepted that wired glass is acceptable, however there is now a new BS standard that seems to override that). However, VERY few people ever fit the full package of paper etc.

3) Fire doors have to be fitted with intumescent seal around the door. Now, if it is fitted to the door, you have to rebate out the top of the door. If you rebate out the top, you immediatly cut straight thru the new stickering system which certifies the fire door. That then breaks the regulations. You can't win.

4) Rest home inspectors insist on smoke seal as well, others don't though this may shortly change to become essential. Note, 10mm was the standard width. Then came 15mm, now 20mm strip has just become available...
I have just spent (last week) 2 hours with the fire inspection office for our local brigade discussing this. By his own admission the whole situation is a mess.

The whole situation is further compounded by different needs of different inspectorates.

To sum up. Buy a fire door that is rated with a sticker. Do not cut any holes or openings into it. Fit three hinges (pref stainless steel with ball barings CE certified), fit a door closer ie a Perko or overhead one. If possible fit a smoke seal/intumescent strip to the frame or door.
depending on the precise location you may also ned a "fire door keep shut" sign on it.

You will have then done everything reasonable to meet regs.

If you really want to get confused, just do a search on Google for fire regs!

Mark

 

[PowerTool]

Just as a sidenote

There are some specialised intumescent paints

W.J.Leighs of Bolton make intumescent paint(s) - at work,we deliver the resin to them for making it.

Andrew