I have got a job to re work some badly fitted fire doors/frames. This may involve planting some extra bits of timber with glue and screws. The client has asked for a fire resitant adhesive to be used. Anyone know of of a preferably readily available product that would comply with the necassary standards? Thanks in advance.
Fire resistant adhesive
- Thread starter Mark H
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
barkwindjammer
Established Member
Wrap a tube of 'no more nails' in red plumbers tape, tell the client you got the 'stuff' and stick another £60 on the bill
Lons
Established Member
You can buy intumescent and fire retardent "silicone" from screwfix etc.
I used it to seal around pipes etc through the walls of my extension and it certainly had good adhesive properties. not expensive so might be worth a go?
Bob
I used it to seal around pipes etc through the walls of my extension and it certainly had good adhesive properties. not expensive so might be worth a go?
Bob
I just wondered what glue is used to make up new door leafs and blanks. A call to a manufacture may prove interesting. There will be a B.S. on the construction. If it was additional edge strips then an intumescent strip under may be a solution; like doors are made initially. Just a thought.
thomvic
Established Member
You want fire resistant adhesive to stick flamable wood to flamable wood? :? You're having a joke aren't you?
Richard
Richard
lol
k
bosshogg
Established Member
Throughout my years in the trade, no mention has ever been made of fireproof glue to be used too fire doors...it's baloney #-o
Cheers...bosshogg
Cheers...bosshogg
Hi ya All. So what do door manufactures use? I have never heard of fire-proof glue either.......but whatever glue is used by manufactures, it must be part of passing the fire integrity tests so the question is valid and worth checking.
Some glues may in fact not react to heat or fire. If they did not, the face skin veneers would delaminate and slide down off the door core so what does happens to a fire door? What bonds the various layers and laminations? It isn't’ PVA.
I think urea formaldehyde adhesives are used by door manufactures. Possibly also the variations of which I know little, i.e. melamine-formaldehyde., etc. I think a more technical term may be, Fire Resistant Adhesives, Fire Retardant Adhesives, or High temperature resistant adhesives, so they are definitely around for industrial use. I do know it is possible to purchase the odd tube of special high temperature sealants but don’t know where you would get small quantities of ‘fire proof glues’. Adhesives are around that will withstand 200-600deg F. but I think your dead long before that temperature is reached. Epoxy resin adhesives may also be used in door production.
The steel/aluminium sandwiched roof and wall insulated panels must use a fire resistant adhesive of some sort as they are also fire rated, partly due to the levels of insulation but they must retain integrity in a structure in fire. They couldn’t delaminate. Aircraft are glued together nowadays so probably fire resistant. Years ago I used adhesive tapes from the aircraft industry to glue shop cornice panels together, sounds a bit like over kill now but it was a super duper job.
It is what is practical for the question and if the requirement is relevant and not ‘over kill by the client’. Depends upon what is being fixed, but there are 'fire' glues there to use. It may be you will need to purchase a 5,000 gal. road tanker of the stuff.
Terms are relative; like ‘non-slip’ floor coverings are actually ‘slip-resistant’ and so ‘fire-resistant’ rather than ‘fire-proof’.
There you are. Good luck.
Some glues may in fact not react to heat or fire. If they did not, the face skin veneers would delaminate and slide down off the door core so what does happens to a fire door? What bonds the various layers and laminations? It isn't’ PVA.
I think urea formaldehyde adhesives are used by door manufactures. Possibly also the variations of which I know little, i.e. melamine-formaldehyde., etc. I think a more technical term may be, Fire Resistant Adhesives, Fire Retardant Adhesives, or High temperature resistant adhesives, so they are definitely around for industrial use. I do know it is possible to purchase the odd tube of special high temperature sealants but don’t know where you would get small quantities of ‘fire proof glues’. Adhesives are around that will withstand 200-600deg F. but I think your dead long before that temperature is reached. Epoxy resin adhesives may also be used in door production.
The steel/aluminium sandwiched roof and wall insulated panels must use a fire resistant adhesive of some sort as they are also fire rated, partly due to the levels of insulation but they must retain integrity in a structure in fire. They couldn’t delaminate. Aircraft are glued together nowadays so probably fire resistant. Years ago I used adhesive tapes from the aircraft industry to glue shop cornice panels together, sounds a bit like over kill now but it was a super duper job.
It is what is practical for the question and if the requirement is relevant and not ‘over kill by the client’. Depends upon what is being fixed, but there are 'fire' glues there to use. It may be you will need to purchase a 5,000 gal. road tanker of the stuff.
Terms are relative; like ‘non-slip’ floor coverings are actually ‘slip-resistant’ and so ‘fire-resistant’ rather than ‘fire-proof’.
There you are. Good luck.
Chrispy
Established Member
Cascamite it is then (hammer)
Thought I would investigate further on adhesive issues. What is used. So not all that it would seem for the wood industry side.
From one big manufacturer only, the face veneers are pva heat pressed on and are scarficial in the event of fire, the core then taking the next stage of resistance. Face veneer, paint grade, etc, will burn down/through/deteriorate in 5 to 6 mins. (Your probably dead by that time of course with intumescents gone) Still dont know what is used for the core laminations though, as presumably they cannot derioreate at the same pace as the veneers. The pva will be an industrial garde with hardners for performance and ease of use, in an assembly line working at high speeds. A 60/60 door must still stay retain its integrity for 60 mins. For composite metal cladding it is still relevant or was a number of years ago for the metal to insulation adhesive line. They experience very high 'to touch temperatures' apart from the obvious high temps. experienced in fire.
So partly right or is that partly wrong? This leaves the question unanswered and unresolved. So what is used.
From one big manufacturer only, the face veneers are pva heat pressed on and are scarficial in the event of fire, the core then taking the next stage of resistance. Face veneer, paint grade, etc, will burn down/through/deteriorate in 5 to 6 mins. (Your probably dead by that time of course with intumescents gone) Still dont know what is used for the core laminations though, as presumably they cannot derioreate at the same pace as the veneers. The pva will be an industrial garde with hardners for performance and ease of use, in an assembly line working at high speeds. A 60/60 door must still stay retain its integrity for 60 mins. For composite metal cladding it is still relevant or was a number of years ago for the metal to insulation adhesive line. They experience very high 'to touch temperatures' apart from the obvious high temps. experienced in fire.
So partly right or is that partly wrong? This leaves the question unanswered and unresolved. So what is used.
Thanks Twothumbs for the time effort and obvious thought that you've put into this. obviously there is nothing readily available, however a search did reveal a company called Fortafix who make a fire retardive adhesive for fire door manufacture. I'm still not sure that this is suitable, I will give them a call to find out more.
Normally a fire door door frame would be rebated and where it isn't it was always said that a 25mm stop should be fitted, glued and screwed, nowhere does it state what the glue should be, therefore one would assume that as it's not that prescriptive that any 'normal' wood glue would suffice. However there are possibly 50 doors in this building that are badly fitted and the clients Technical Manager is obviously concerned that if the fire door or frame is altered in any way that it's integrity may be compromised and therefore using a flame retardant glue may go someway to mitigate this. He has asked me to look into this, however I will only do what he specifies even if it is from information that I have supplied him. If this was just a one off frame the right thing to do would be to remove the keep side of the frame/lining and re fit it correctly, make good any damaged plaster and re wall paper either side (two different wall papers). The cost of doing this throughout the whole building would be to high, which is why they want to look at alternative solutions, sorry didn't want to go into this lengthy explanation just wondered if someone knew of a suitable adhesive, it may be that he will have to accept a PVA in the end which personally I think would be O.K., however I'm not the one who has the responsibility of making this decision, although potentially it would be my public liability insurance that would be claimed on in the event of a problem.
Normally a fire door door frame would be rebated and where it isn't it was always said that a 25mm stop should be fitted, glued and screwed, nowhere does it state what the glue should be, therefore one would assume that as it's not that prescriptive that any 'normal' wood glue would suffice. However there are possibly 50 doors in this building that are badly fitted and the clients Technical Manager is obviously concerned that if the fire door or frame is altered in any way that it's integrity may be compromised and therefore using a flame retardant glue may go someway to mitigate this. He has asked me to look into this, however I will only do what he specifies even if it is from information that I have supplied him. If this was just a one off frame the right thing to do would be to remove the keep side of the frame/lining and re fit it correctly, make good any damaged plaster and re wall paper either side (two different wall papers). The cost of doing this throughout the whole building would be to high, which is why they want to look at alternative solutions, sorry didn't want to go into this lengthy explanation just wondered if someone knew of a suitable adhesive, it may be that he will have to accept a PVA in the end which personally I think would be O.K., however I'm not the one who has the responsibility of making this decision, although potentially it would be my public liability insurance that would be claimed on in the event of a problem.
Mark
I would call someone like Henkel for technical advice. It sounds hard enough making good someone elses poor work without you having to trawl through British Standards and European norms. The manager should be happy with their recommendations
Good luck
Matt
I would call someone like Henkel for technical advice. It sounds hard enough making good someone elses poor work without you having to trawl through British Standards and European norms. The manager should be happy with their recommendations
Good luck
Matt
Mark. Your straight question is now seen to be rather more complex and not immediately resolved including myself and possibly your client. You can gain a university degree in such matters nowadays so it is more academic and less practically even if it should be. In matters of fire it is worth remembering that it may now be covered by criminal law....... on the bright side you will still be able to contribute to the forum via jail internet courtesy HM. Clear lines of responsibility for instructing and agreeing the actions are essential to you. OK your pli may be of interest if workmanship was ever to come into question but not the specification I would hope. The tech. man. may have to take greater resonsibility perhaps.
The adhesive company you have found is certainly is a good find. I suspect that door manufacturers will spend very large sums of money on research and test certification and occasional manufacturing tests that the glues (adhesives) and glue line will be industrial secrets. The section and density of timber is all part of the successful test. The 25mm (actual) planted stop used to be hardwood (cannot remember the density but hard h/w). But why both glued and screwed? What does the glue do that the screws don’t do better? ie. a physical fixing over applied perhaps. You can see planted stops with daylight coming through the back so perhaps the glue stabilises the stop allowing it time
to acclimatise to the building. 50 odd doors suggested the building may be subject to a fire certificate before occupation, and then the Fire Prevention officer would be a worthwhile person to speak with. If the doors are recent then the manufacturer should be part of the solution particularly if part of a manufacturing test cert.
Not easy. Good luck.
The adhesive company you have found is certainly is a good find. I suspect that door manufacturers will spend very large sums of money on research and test certification and occasional manufacturing tests that the glues (adhesives) and glue line will be industrial secrets. The section and density of timber is all part of the successful test. The 25mm (actual) planted stop used to be hardwood (cannot remember the density but hard h/w). But why both glued and screwed? What does the glue do that the screws don’t do better? ie. a physical fixing over applied perhaps. You can see planted stops with daylight coming through the back so perhaps the glue stabilises the stop allowing it time
to acclimatise to the building. 50 odd doors suggested the building may be subject to a fire certificate before occupation, and then the Fire Prevention officer would be a worthwhile person to speak with. If the doors are recent then the manufacturer should be part of the solution particularly if part of a manufacturing test cert.
Not easy. Good luck.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Just out of interest, if the work done by the previous contractor is shoddy, what makes them think its conforms to regs. my presumption is a fire officer has been in to inspect and has condemned the work, and the techical/facilties manager is overcooking what is required to put the job right.
I will tell you now that most fire doors that have been fitted in this country won't conform to regs..................
I will tell you now that most fire doors that have been fitted in this country won't conform to regs..................
bosshogg
Established Member
If you are taking instruction for any extra work, from your client, re fire resistant doors fitted by others for an inspection, i would somehow get them to put it in writing, say via a technical query, that way any comeback is on them...bosshogg 
tomatwark
Established Member
You definately want the job in writing spelling out each stage and get it signed off before you start the work.
If you agree to do the work without this and the doors still fail an inspection they can say you did not do the job properly and not pay you.
I would be tempted to do 1 door and get it inspected so that all parties are happy.
As has been said already most fire door are not installed properly anyway, I stayed in a hotel a couple of years ago and because the floor was so far out of level the person who fitted the door cut the bottom off giving the door a 1" gap under it when it was shut.
Are these doors 1/2 hour or 1 hour rated?
Tom
If you agree to do the work without this and the doors still fail an inspection they can say you did not do the job properly and not pay you.
I would be tempted to do 1 door and get it inspected so that all parties are happy.
As has been said already most fire door are not installed properly anyway, I stayed in a hotel a couple of years ago and because the floor was so far out of level the person who fitted the door cut the bottom off giving the door a 1" gap under it when it was shut.
Are these doors 1/2 hour or 1 hour rated?
Tom
