Finishing furniture backs

[Woodypk]

Hi Guys,

I'd just like to hear your opinions on the boxing in options of mid - higher end furniture, namely the back face which is sat up against a wall on items such as TV stands/cabinets, media unit, drawer units etc.

Most cheap(ish) furniture I've made for various room in my house, such as chest of drawers and wardrobes that I'd always planned to be painted, had been finished in hardwood ply, which I think looks fine once painted (especially when you'll never see it as it's up against a wall).

I've also bought furniture in the past which has flimsy hardboard backing and some higher end stuff which had no back at all. Obviously the no back at all option isn't suitable for certain furniture such as a chest of drawers for example.

The reason I ask is because I want to have a go at making some higher end stuff for some friends who hope to have their house renovation completed by the summer. They told me they love the look of darker woods such as walnut and dark stained oak and they've agreed to cover the cost of materials + a bit as a thankyou. I thought this might be a good way to complete a few more projects without having to pay from my own pocket for the materials - since I'm a hobbyist and this isn't my method of generating income, material costs are a big thing for me.

So what would you do?

I'm thinking a Walnut bedroom furniture set - Chest of Drawers, bedside tables, maybe a wardrobe... and for downstairs I'm thinking a TV unit and perhaps a bookcase or some sort of shelving unit, maybe in oak.

How would you finish the backs of these? Is solid wood of the same species/thickness/finish the only way to go?

Tom.

 

[thetyreman]

I would say no to this, just making one piece of furniture is hard enough, making a set would be ridiculously time consuming and walnut is mega expensive, you should tell them it'll cost this much and stick to it, I think you should never agree to work for free, your time is worth more than that, even for a friend.

 

[Woodypk]

Hi tyreman,

While in some circumstances, I'd agree with you, in this case I don't believe I'm at any sort of loss.

The material costs for this projects are zero because they're already covered and my time is not charged at any sort of rate because this isn't a business for me right now. I'm more interested in getting the experience as well and ulimately, I do these jobs because I find them fun.

I've made smaller pieces from oak, walnut, mahogany and other expensive woods but just not on this physical scale - not from premium hardwoods anyway...

It might be worth mentioning, I design all my projects on CAD first before I make them. When starting out, I used to find myself making unnecessary mistakes due to poor planning, so I know I can have a cut list made one the design is finalised and agreed.

tyreman, do you have any thoughts on what I was asking with the backs of the units?

Tom

 

[dzj]

How would you finish the backs of these? Is solid wood of the same species/thickness/finish the only way to go?

Tom.

Traditionally, visible backs were shiplapped or T&G from solid stock. Frame and panel is also sometimes used. Veneering common plywood with a more expensive species is also not unheard of.
If the backs aren't visible, then secondary wood or ply is adequate.

 

[Doug B]

Just go for veneered ply or MDF to match the timber you end up using, from the sounds of things you’ve got enough on making the furniture let alone making up solid panels which are a lot more prone to movement.
I‘d add that I would cost out your materials & add a good percentage for possible unfit timber or any mistakes you may make otherwise it won’t be just your time you’re giving for free. I would also want this money up front as friends have a habit of being slow at putting their hands in their pocket even when they are getting a favour done for them.

 

[Droogs]

Traditionally the internal structure and the back of furniture pieces is made from what is usually called "deal". This is usually low cost hardwoods poplar but can also be softwood such as pine. Normally you would T&G narrow boards and use them to do the back cover as they will not be seen. It is only a post modrn affectation to have high end wood showing on all faces.

edit dzj must be a faster typist than me lol

 

[thetyreman]

I'd use tongue and groove or shiplap for the backs, frame and panel is good for stability if it's solid wood but very time consuming if done using traditional joinery methods and hand cut joinery.

Nothing wrong with plywood, it's just finding the right colour that matches your walnut, I would consider buying high quality veneer ideally bookmatched and gluing that to some ply for the backs, you'll probably need to buy a lot more than you think so bear that in mind, aim for at least 20% more than you actually need.

 

[doctor Bob]

We tend to use veneered MDF or veneered ply, rebated in with a 50mm gap behind to allow for plugs and sockets,on free standing furniture

 

[Woodypk]

Thanks for the reply guys. It's massively appreciated.

So it sounds like a veneer is the way to go.

Would you not recommend creating my own veneer and gluing it to the ply myself? Or am I really making more work than is necessary?

 

[Droogs]

A lot of work if you don't do this regularly and have the needed kit. better to just by some mdf faced with the veneer you want. have a look here to see what is possible

 

[Jacob]

Almost anything functional will do as it's mostly out of sight.
A lot of traditional stuff even "high end" may have just plain boards at the back, maybe planed on the internal face only, or both or neither, or butted, T&G, half lapped etc.
Next level of poshness would be framed panels.
Natural tendency would be to use inferior quality materials compared to the visible front. Sometimes very inferior with massive knots, or just very thin.

 

[Hornbeam]

I think the quality of the backs, reflects the overall quality of the piece but also consider whether the back is ever seen. So on a chest of drawere, the back is always hidden by the drawere but a wardrobe/cupboard you will see the back when you open the doors
So in order of quality, I would probable say

1. Cheap plywood grooved/rebated into the sides
2. Veneered plywood grooved/rebated into the sides
3. Veneered plywood panels in a separate frame. The frame would be mortice and tennoned but could be dominoed. Advantage of veneered panels is they can be glued in all round as you dont really have to consider timber movement
4. Cedar of Lebanon panels in a separate frame ( particularly for clothing storage). You could also use solid panels of the same wood as the rest of the piece

Just remember that quality takes time and costs money . What level are you aiming for and what level does you client appreciate/expect
Also consider that TV /electrical items can create quite a bit of heat so if in a semi enclosed cabinet you need to consider wood drying movement and allowing the heat out

 

[TheTiddles]

One of the ways of telling a genuine old piece is what got used for backs, drawer bottoms etc. Modern pieces are often made to a far higher standard, some beautiful pieces have packing crates nailed on the back, dovetail cuts that extend miles past the scribe line that are then covered in lining paper etc...

make it how you are happy with it, that’s a luxury the people who have to make money on it don’t have, enjoy that.

Aidan

 

[Jacob]

I think the quality of the backs, reflects the overall quality of the piece ....

I think the quality of the backs reflect only the quality of the backs.

 

[Ttrees]

Might be a bit off topic, as WoodyPK is seemingly OK with modern day slavery,
regarding HIS/HER own time,effort, and risking the WoodyPK name,
as the projects intended to be a learning experience for someone else who doesn't appear to place any or much value on workmanship,
If they truly are that mean, I would be wanting to know what they expect in regards to the back of the piece(s)
One could assume they are clueless, or you have came across that you can do it in your factory easily in a day.


Is it up to us to keep doing it the traditional way for authenticity though?

I would think the average buyer of handmade furniture is always right, and that they would expect the highest standard in freestanding peices, otherwise why not go to Ikea/OFL.

You could argue its a nod to tradition, but with the advancement of technology,
has the goal posts not moved?

One could counter argue with this though, and suggest old methods are still valid as environmental impact needs to be considered nowadays.

What say ye, about this
Thanks
Tom

 

[Hornbeam]

I totally agree with Aidan that many very high quality pieces had very crude backs etc.
The question is where do you stop. Should you only focus on the visible aspect of the piece when everything is closed. Why do drawers with fine London pattern exude quality when structurally the are much poorer than coarser ones. Drawer bottoms with drawer slips and cedar bottoms easier to do wider drawer sides and a ply base as they are never seen
My point is see what the client wants/understands and then make accordingly

 

[Jacob]

I totally agree with Aidan that many very high quality pieces had very crude backs etc.
The question is where do you stop. Should you only focus on the visible aspect of the piece when everything is closed. Why do drawers with fine London pattern exude quality when structurally the are much poorer than coarser ones. Drawer bottoms with drawer slips and cedar bottoms easier to do wider drawer sides and a ply base as they are never seen
My point is see what the client wants/understands and then make accordingly

So called London Pattern DTs can be done crudely too. There's nothing special about them they are the easiest to do as you can start them from just one saw kerf. And for all normal drawer purposes they are strong enough. Whether or not they are finely done is another thing altogether.
One reason for "fine" detailing with thin drawer sides etc is that it saves on material. You can't join a 8mm thick drawer bottom to a 6mm thick side with nails but you can if you taper the board edge and put it in a slot. It's the cheapest way to do it and saves material.
A lot of posh stuff has every corner cut with all the emphasis being on what you see up front.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Another option would be simply to stain ply or poplar/pine boards to match the 'show' wood. There are loads of 'walnut' stain options for example. Even Doucette & Wolf use poplar or similar as a 'secondary' wood. https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCjatELwdjLj3_03Q80iTc_g

 

[Jacob]

Forgot to say - backs may need to be loose fitting, pinned lightly or in slots etc. to allow for movement.
If strongly constructed and solidly joined at the back, then movement in the structure might show at the front instead, and you could get sticking drawers and doors.

 

[TheTiddles]

Forgot to say - backs may need to be loose fitting, pinned lightly or in slots etc. to allow for movement.
If strongly constructed and solidly joined at the back, then movement in the structure might show at the front instead, and you could get sticking drawers and doors.

Not if you use veneered MDF