Felder PCS/sawstop video

[Jacob]

.....If there’s a passive safety feature that’s the difference between losing a hand and not having a scratch surely that’s something worth having a look at.

Yes but only if a concerted training effort in PSPCS has preceded it and proved ineffective, especially in view of the cost difference. PSPCS is very underrated. Felder should promote PSPCS as a priority. They could put their name on the handles.
n.b. once acquired PSPCS is usable on nearly all woodwork machines, ancient or modern, at no extra expense and with no modification.
Dosage; repeat the above in a meercat accent, three times a day or as necessary! :lol:

 

[lurker]

Jacob,
Your evangelism regarding push sticks is admirable and I fully agree with you.
But but, if folks want to spend their money on expensive fads then that is their problem.

You ain't going to change them, so by all means sing your song but don't let the needle get stuck once you have made your point.

 

[dzj]

Nothing wrong with a little extra safety if you can afford it.
Both companies make good table saws, so it's a win-win.
With this new Felder technology, many frankfurters are uttering sighs of relief.

 

[Jacob]

The video shows dangerous saw practice - loosely hand-held workpieces with hands close to the blade. It refers to this as "normal practice".
This is not normal practice.
Felder are effectively commending a dangerous practice in order to promote an expensive solution.
This is a fairly extreme example of the 'gadgetization' of woodwork, whereby the innocent are misleadingly persuaded that something which in reality can be done easily and/or safely is actually difficult or dangerous and they must buy an expensive product.
Thoroughly reprehensible and dishonest IMHO.

 

[Trevanion]

The video shows dangerous saw practice - loosely hand-held workpieces with hands close to the blade. It refers to this as "normal practice".
This is not normal practice.
Felder are effectively commending a dangerous practice in order to promote an expensive solution.

You're absolutely full of it here in my opinion. There was no workpiece in that video that was "loosely hand-held" if anything he was applying more force than was necessary to keep the board in place with his fingertips going white. I can lay a board on my saw and feed it through the blade on the crosscut slide with nothing holding it down without much issue, of course, you'd never actually do that in normal use. There is absolutely no "dangerous practice shown in the video at all aside from the blade guard being set higher than normal for camera clarity.

Have you ever actually used a panel saw with a sliding table, Jacob?

 

[Jacob]

They talk as though having your fingers close to the saw is normal and the video shows it.

.....
Have you ever actually used a panel saw with a sliding table, Jacob?

Yes of course I have, currently a combi (Minimax Lab 600), which is a small panel saw with a sliding table. I can put a door on the table but not an 8x4' heavy sheet.
We had a big one, proper job Startrite something, when I shared a workshop some years back.
Which reminds me - you could hardly get your hand near the blade without leaning right over, you didn't need to.

 

[Trevanion]

They talk as though having your fingers close to the saw is normal and the video shows it.

His fingers are at least 3"+ away from the blade, And I suspect they were only at that pretty safe distance just so they could get the frankfurter to trigger the saw, a normal cut and your hand would be somewhere near the middle of the panel. I've seen accidents with injuries happen, would push sticks have prevented an injury? Yes, they would have. Once healed and the operator went back to using the saw did they begin using push sticks? No, they didn't even consider it. Would the operator be interested in a saw with a safety feature like PCS? Yes.

I could spend time worrying about every safety aspect in my workshop and using every guard and push stick available but I would never make any money. For example, using the overhand planer I don't usually have the bridge guard installed as it tedious to set up and tends to just get in the way, if I had to adjust it for every random piece of timber I put over it I would be doubling or more the time spent on that particular cut. Do I recommend it? Absolutely not, but I've only limited time on this planet and I don't want to be spending it constantly fretting over the safety of my optional bodyparts, time saved is more money earned at the end of the day and you've got to make it while you're young.

You'll like this video, Jacob. Full of safety tips like eye and ear protection :lol:

[youtube]B3HBfj423cc[/youtube]

 

[Rich C]

I really don't see the opposition to this. If a company wants to pay extra for this then why not? It's a lot cheaper than having someone off sick because they cut their fingers off.

It's a bit like the trend for cars to have autonomous braking to prevent accidents. Yes, ideally people would just pay attention and not crash, and yet they do, so having a technical backup reduces injuries.

 

[Jacob]

...
I could spend time worrying about every safety aspect in my workshop and using every guard and push stick available but I would never make any money. For example, using the overhand planer I don't usually have the bridge guard installed as it tedious to set up and tends to just get in the way, ....

Sorry to go on about it but I know it works and am quietly confident that going on about it over the years may well have saved a few fingers, though we'll never know. I picked it up from this forum (or earlier version).
I shouldn't say this but with push sticks you can often leave guards off. Your fingers are never going to be nearer the cutters than 6" or more. They actually speed up the job once you have the hang of it and the extra long reach is helpful. After a bit it becomes 2nd nature and you wouldn't be without them.

 

[fiveeyes]

Jacob.. you may know what works for you...you do NOT know what works for someone else.
You are old, and set in your ways, but your ways will be lost soon. Just so you and all others here know, I too am old (probably older than you), and set in my ways. Quit bitching about the way others do, and get on with your life, and work.

Change is the universal language of all life. Take it to the bank.

 

[Inspector]

My father went from starting his apprenticeship in Denmark when he was 14 until he died a few years ago at 91 without ever getting cut on the table saw. Sometimes he used a push stick but was perfectly comfortable with the blade a 1/4" from his finger and that was between the fence and blade. I won't do that even with the SawStop.

Pete

 

[Trainee neophyte]

They talk as though having your fingers close to the saw is normal and the video shows it.

His fingers are at least 3"+ away from the blade, And I suspect they were only at that pretty safe distance just so they could get the frankfurter to trigger the saw, a normal cut and your hand would be somewhere near the middle of the panel. I've seen accidents with injuries happen, would push sticks have prevented an injury? Yes, they would have. Once healed and the operator went back to using the saw did they begin using push sticks? No, they didn't even consider it. Would the operator be interested in a saw with a safety feature like PCS? Yes.

I could spend time worrying about every safety aspect in my workshop and using every guard and push stick available but I would never make any money. For example, using the overhand planer I don't usually have the bridge guard installed as it tedious to set up and tends to just get in the way, if I had to adjust it for every random piece of timber I put over it I would be doubling or more the time spent on that particular cut. Do I recommend it? Absolutely not, but I've only limited time on this planet and I don't want to be spending it constantly fretting over the safety of my optional bodyparts, time saved is more money earned at the end of the day and you've got to make it while you're young.

You'll like this video, Jacob. Full of safety tips like eye and ear protection :lol:

[youtube]B3HBfj423cc[/youtube]

Loved the video - jaw dropping that someone designed that kit to be used like that.

My favourite bit of the whole thread is:

Maybe that in itself would be the greatest safety factor and inducement to safe practice with push sticks; the saw stop firing, an instant cost generated by bad handling, like a parking fine?

Sums up humans really - losing fingers is less of a disincentive than losing money and time. As a professional, you are going to a) work as efficiently as possible and b) do it a lot, every day, so become very proficient. I am not a professional, and I really, really need my fingers, so I take the slow and steady approach. I couldn't possibly earn a living working the way I do. I did wonder whether the guy in the video is the owner, or an employee, because there is a different slant to making your own decisions about safety, and having to endure dangerous practices or risk losing your job. HSE probably does have its place, even if I do dislike nanny state interference, and training on how to climb a ladder and other pointless endeavours.

 

[Jacob]

..... HSE probably does have its place, even if I do dislike nanny state interference, and training on how to climb a ladder and other pointless endeavours.

Saves lives. Ultimately increases productivity/profit if the cost of accidents/death are factored in i.e. the employer (or the self employed) having to pay, one way or another.
'Nanny state': a childish right wing cliche.
It does seem to run through right wing thought; the idea that any concession is a loss of personal freedom, or 'sovereignty' in the case of the EU.
How about having to drive on the left (or right) is that a gross intrusion on personal liberty? Certainly it's quite commonplace to hear people jabbering on about speed limits and similar constraints; other accident mitigating 'nanny state' impositions.
It's Peter Pan psychology - never growing up! :lol: :lol:
PS Cameron said that being in Parliament was like being in a big school. Do public schools engender that Peter Pan childishness and 'nanny state' nonsense? Old Etonians are more likely than anybody to have had an actual nanny and our familiar old Etonians are conspicuously infantile. (Johnson, Cameron, Osborne and many others and other posh schools).
PS Peter Pan leading the swivel eyed loons! The more you think about it the better it fits!

 

[doctor Bob]

is the above a party political broadcast?
How you can get from saw stop to the above is beyond me.
I generally think any thing aimed at improving safety is generally good regardless of cost, over a period of time these things become the norm. Like seat belts and airbags (which I happen to believe are a good thing) and helmets.

 

[Jacob]

....
I generally think any thing aimed at improving safety is generally good regardless of cost, over a period of time these things become the norm. Like seat belts and airbags (which I happen to believe are a good thing) and helmets.

Me too. I'm a bit slack about push-bike helmets though.

The issue here is the omission of any reference to simple, cheap, accessible, reliable, universal safety measures, (PSPCS :lol: ) in favour of almost the exact opposite (Felder's "PCS").

PS just noticed - the Felder PCS is just like my electric toaster mech in reverse - electro magnets release the toast and it pops up.
Maybe I'm wrong and it will become cheap, viable and reliable.

 

[doctor Bob]

Tin foil helmets for me Jacob. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Doug71]

I do use push sticks on the saw when needed but not all the time, generally what I am cutting is long enough to not need them, I was once told "Keep it as long as you can as long as you can" which makes a lot of sense.

I think one of the main reasons people don't use them is the extra time it takes to keep picking them up and putting them down again, I know it's only a couple of seconds but it does interrupt the work flow.

 

[Jacob]

I do use push sticks on the saw when needed but not all the time, generally what I am cutting is long enough to not need them, I was once told "Keep it as long as you can as long as you can" which makes a lot of sense.

It does make sense for your timber stock but not for the workpieces i.e. you work through your cutting list from longest pieces first, to be taken from shortest pieces of available stock. Generally speaking it's easiest and less wasteful to work with finished size workpieces , unless they are very short and easier handled as one piece

I think one of the main reasons people don't use them is the extra time it takes to keep picking them up and putting them down again, I know it's only a couple of seconds but it does interrupt the work flow.

It doesn't upset the work flow once you get the habit - it improves it and improves finish quality through better holding : longer reach, better grip and closer to cutters/blades (if necessary)

 

[transatlantic]

I think one of the main reasons people don't use them is the extra time it takes to keep picking them up and putting them down again, I know it's only a couple of seconds but it does interrupt the work flow.

I always use push sticks, but the one argument I agree with is that I do feel like I have less control. Not to the point where I feel I would lose control (which is even more dangerous), but that I feel I could get a more accurate cut by hand. But I am more than happy to perhaps maybe get a slightly inaccurate cut than to lose my fingers. And I do feel like I am getting better and better with push sticks, so it might just be a time/practise thing.

Push blocks on the other hand ... still can't get used to those

 

[Doug71]

I agree you get a better finish using push sticks on the saw as you can get closer to the blade, 99% of everything I saw goes over the planer though.

I have only ever used push sticks a couple of times on spindle moulder, I try to make sure everything is long enough to not need them.

Never got my head around using push sticks on surface planer.