Felder PCS/sawstop video

[Doug71]

Think this is a new video on the Felder PCS technology, very impressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqV316i ... e=youtu.be

 

[transatlantic]

I only just found out that Steve Gass is actually a patent attorney :O

 

[Jacob]

I'd be more impressed if someone did a video of somebody using two push sticks. Tiny fraction of the price of Saw stop but much, much, safer and will work on ALL the machines in your workshop un modified; TS, Spindle, Planer, router table.
Two push sticks about £5 or make your own from scraps.

 

[Alpha-Dave]

I'd be more impressed if someone did a video of somebody using two push sticks. Tiny fraction of the price of Saw stop but much, much, safer and will work on ALL the machines in your workshop un modified; TS, Spindle, Planer, router table.
Two push sticks about £5 or make your own from scraps.

I take it you didn’t actually watch the video before dismissing it, this was covered at 1:44 in.

 

[Jacob]

Had a look . Didn't spot anything interesting at 1.44?
Entertained by the Meercat style daft german accent voice over. Is it a p**s take? :lol:
I think Saw stop is dead stupid, ridiculously expensive and potentially dangerous.
I think push stick use is very sensible, very cheap and very safe.

 

[Trevanion]

That's actually pretty neat, I've seen some videos on the PCS before but none this detailed. It's nice that if you do trigger the system by either your hand going into the blade or some other anomaly that it doesn't wreck the blade (which the blades that fit the Kappa 550 are £200+ on the low-end and Felder blades costing £400+) plus you don't have to get a new cartridge like the Sawstop saws need. Right back to working, no need for downtime

Of course, push sticks work for a fraction of the price, can't really argue with that. The only problem is even after 200 years of working with circular saws and the numerous examples of accidents involving saws (Everyone knows someone who's had a run-in :roll, workmen still don't tend to use them because of the "It won't happen to me" ego that you don't lose until you're in your 70's. The alternative? Introduce a passive safety feature that will eventually be the standard on all new saws.

Please no push stick debating, it's been done to death already in similar threads.

 

[Jacob]

.
Of course, push sticks work for a fraction of the price, can't really argue with that. The only problem is even after 200 years of working with circular saws and the numerous examples of accidents involving saws (Everyone knows someone who's had a run-in :roll, workmen still don't tend to use them because of the "It won't happen to me" ego that you don't lose until you're in your 70's. The alternative? Introduce a passive safety feature that will eventually be the standard on all new saws.

Saw stop will never become standard as it is incredibly expensive and there are of years of use left in so many older machines. The alternative? Obviously to introduce push sticks more thoroughly.
What disturbs me is that people will talk about Saw stop but tend to be blind or even negative about push sticks.

 

[Trevanion]

Saw stop will never become standard as it is incredibly expensive and there are of years of use left in so many older machines.

They said that about pretty much every safety feature on a car, The push stick VS Sawstop/PCS argument is sort of like "Why do you need airbags when you could just drive tidier?" Because there's always going to be that one ***** that doesn't drive tidy and the airbag is going to make the difference where either his head gets smashed into a pulp on the steering wheel or that he has a chance of surviving. It won't be standard immediately, no. Eventually, they will become more common and cheaper with time, secondhand machines will be passed down to the people that can afford them, etc and eventually (I'm talking 20+ years here), I can see it becoming a part of the woodworking regulations because it just makes sense. It's exactly the same as machine brakes, limiter tooling and even safety bumpers on the end of a nailgun, in the hands of a safe, experienced operator who is fully aware of what their doing it would be fine to use machinery that takes 5 minutes to run-down or spindle moulder cutters that have a potential to take off 10mm in a single pass or nailguns with no safety features, it's the unsafe, complacent "Won't happen to me" workers that make up 95% or so of the countries workforce that usually gets injured.

What disturbs me is that people will talk about Saw stop but tend to be blind or even negative about push sticks.

I quite like a spiked stick myself, very handy around the TS for moving offcuts near the blade .

 

[Inspector]

What about me Jacob? I have a SawStop and use push sticks too.

The Feldor system is an step up over the SawStop but being a high end product it will likely not trickle down to the smaller saws or job site saws. I cn see them adapting it to shapers someday. The SawStop and similar is suitable for a lower end machine so will likely become the standard.

I wear a seatbelt = push stick but if ever in a big accident the airbag = blade brake will help me survive. Cheers.

Pete

 

[transatlantic]

I wonder how Felder got over the patent with what seems like the same idea as the Bosch?

Sent from my SM-J510FN using Tapatalk

 

[Trevanion]

I can see them adapting it to shapers someday.

This is something I've been pondering for a very long time (Gotta do something in those hours of power-feeding :lol as it's pretty much the next logical step. Making it work for a moulder would be tricky, you can't have the shaft shoot downwards as it can be cutting above a workpiece or put into a false fence so it would just bind on those, you can't have the fence shoot forward away from the cutters as the operator would get a gut-full of launched workpiece :lol:. The only way I could see it working is if the shaft assembly was on an independent back and forth slider which only operated when the safety feature was activated, the slider would shoot back taking the shaft and moulder block with it. This should work in theory with any standard set-up I can think of, even with the shaft tilted. The only thing I don't think it would work with is curved work, but I think curved work is perhaps one of the least dangerous (While being the most dangerous) aspects of spindle moulding as in you don't really get complacent about it, you're always focused on the work because it is dangerous.

"Concentration can play the most important part in avoiding injury. Accidents rarely happen on jobs that may be considered dangerous because the operator is on the alert. The every day or commonplace operations often lull the operator into carelessness or to have some contempt for danger." - Frank L. Dunsmore

 

[Jacob]

What about me Jacob? I have a SawStop and use push sticks too.......

It did occur to me that if you had the expensive saw stop system the the obvious way to avoid firing it would be to get to grips with push sticks.
Then, ta-da!! you don't need the saw stop - the risk of an accidental cut has become extremely remote - you've implemented a highly effective safety measure which costs next to nothing and is instantly available on all/any machines, not just the TS.
But the risk of incurring the high cost of accidentally triggering the saw stop (damp wood etc) still remains.
Maybe that in itself would be the greatest safety factor and inducement to safe practice with push sticks; the saw stop firing, an instant cost generated by bad handling, like a parking fine?

Parallels with vehicle air bags don't really work:
2018:
1,770 reported road deaths.
26,610 people killed or seriously injured.
165,100 casualties of all severities

 

[Inspector]

........the risk of an accidental cut has become extremely remote ..........
accidentally triggering the saw stop (damp wood etc) still remains......

Well remote doesn't mean impossible so I'll keep using it.

As for the damp wood etc argument. I don't use my saw to cut freshly fallen trees and if I did I would just use the self test function and touch the wood to the blade before turning it on. If the status lights don't change, then using the saw won't set off the brake. If the red lights flash then it will. Then you can decide for yourself if you want to risk it or wait a few years until the wood has dried. :wink:

I know you sit firmly in the blade brakes are bad camp and that is up to you. I am in the use them if you want to camp. The only way you will get my saw from me is by prying all 10 of my fingers open from the death grip of my cold dead hands. Kicking the wooden bucket in the shop when my time comes.

Pete

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Should people be free to cut their own hands off, or should they be protected from themselves? Should you legislate to remove Darwin awards?

Eventually (or soon?) robots will be doing all of this work. Government may even legislate to make it illegal to cut, turn, or process wood in any way, and only "authorised" processing plants will be allowed. Perhaps you will be able to 3d model your work, and it will be sent to you by courier later that afternoon? Everything will end up looking the same, but then IKEA has already done that for us.

Could you buy a robot lathe? No weirder than a CNC machine. How much fun would it be to watch, while the machine did all the work? https://www.millscnc.co.uk/doosan-machi ... g-centres/

Back to the old argument of freedom verses nanny state.

 

[Trevanion]

Parallels with vehicle air bags don't really work:
2018:
1,770 reported road deaths.
26,610 people killed or seriously injured.
165,100 casualties of all severities

Kind of does, out of 165,100 casualties only 1,770 died. You take airbags out of the equation and the number of deaths would easily include that 25,000 seriously injured band if not more.

 

[Jacob]

Yes but we are talking about a few cut/lost fingers not dead bodies. You put push sticks in the woodwork machine equation and cut finger numbers diminish close to zero, cut fingers saved by Saw stop even fewer.
To mis-paraphrase the video; what does PSPCS mean?
Push Stick Preventative Contact System!
Techie types like a bit of meaningless jargon. Sounds better said in a Meercat accent - my wife just told me to stop it!
There's no money in push sticks though. You couldn't even make them with brass knobs (the LN/Veritas way of cranking up profitabiity).

 

[Yojevol]

The market that Felder are aiming at with these saws is very much upper end commercial companies. In these days of litigation such a company may well take the view that it makes economic sense to shell out the extra capital cost so that, in the event of an accident, they will have seen to have done everything possible to minimise the risk.
Brian

 

[Jacob]

I would have thought so. Money no object tick the box!
PSPCS would be safer, cheaper, instantly available but not quite the same techie quackery.
The wealthy amateur market would be worth looking at.

 

[transatlantic]

The market that Felder are aiming at with these saws is very much upper end commercial companies. In these days of litigation such a company may well take the view that it makes economic sense to shell out the extra capital cost so that, in the event of an accident, they will have seen to have done everything possible to minimise the risk.
Brian

In the comments they reply :

At the moment PCS is only available for our kappa 550. In the future, this system should also be available for our Hammer machines but it needs to optimized, also in terms of its costs, before this step can be taken.

 

[Trevanion]

I’m not arguing that push sticks don’t reduce accidents, the simple fact is that they do reduce accidents, they’re cheap and effective. My argument is even after 200 years of use and regulations people are still injuring themselves with table saws, no matter how hard you enforce the push sticks the simple fact is people won’t use them because they know better. If there’s a passive safety feature that’s the difference between losing a hand and not having a scratch surely that’s something worth having a look at.