FAO all Woodrat Owners

[frank]

now then guys and gals rat v leigh, what about man u v man city its just a game isnt it :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: start digging that bunker frank

 

[Adam]

As you say to compare it with the Leigh is nonsense. The Leigh will beat it hands down at making all sorts of dovetail joints,

Nope. I think this is a little rash surely? The 'rat is sold as a dovetail "solution" and I've yet to see any Leigh make a "better" dovetail.

The Rat is an ideal jig for someone who has a small workshop and/or has yet to buy their mortiser, dovetail jig etc etc. But for those of us that already have these £475 is a lot of money just to double up on tools/machines you already have to do these joints.

I'd agree about the small workshop bit But its it's flexibility at speeding you through as yet unforeseen difficulties on projects that seem to make it justify it's cost in my workshop. You know the "if I could just notch that there" or "just take a cut here" and all of a sudden you can, safely.

Leigh does great dovetails and cannot be matched for them. It is the best dovetail jig - fast and incedibly accurate.

I can do great Dovetails on my woodrat, the question is can the Leigh match them? I know lets have a competition - how about a nice set of authentic looking close-as-possible-to-handcut looking dovetail, Leigh vs Woodrat - shall we say 1:6? Oh, do I hear the Leigh crowd wisper, "we can only do 1:7"? Without buying another template? Can you get a 1:6 template for the Leigh? How about 1:8? 1:9? :wink: How about time to changover the spacing? Oh, the woodrat doens't have to do anything to changeover spacing - I'd certainly say the 'rat seems faster :lol: Only teasing :roll:. Anyway, I sent to see the lovely Leigh jigs being demonstrated, and here's my take, which I posted in the previous thread, a few weeks ago....

I own a 'rat, and am happy, but was at the Homewood workshops the other day, when they were reviewing jigs, and sharpeners, and they had the Leigh chap from Brimarc demonstrating.

Boy, I thought perhaps everyone who kept saying how hard the woodrat is to understand and learn might be correct, until I saw the Leigh in action. OK, there is a one off time to learn the woodrat but after that, it's plain sailing. I can finish a batch of drawers in the time it takes to setup a Leigh. He only had an hour to demonstrate the Leigh dovetails, finger joints, the "fancy joints" the M&T, sliding deovetails, so he was motoring through the demo, but even so, "slide this bit in", check, "draw a pencil line here", take the wood out, "put the other piece in", flip this the other way up, "take a cut", careful yiou dont' dip in between the pins, watch out for tear out here, "flip this back, loosen here, align here........ it went on a bit I have to say! Also, quite a few time when demonstrating he seemed to set things up on the Leigh "by eye". He kept saying align this to the 20mm graduation etc. I guess I'd presumed that there wasn't any "set-up" on the Leigh which was "user" adjustable.

Now it did produce some lovely dovetails (the Leigh), and I'm impressed with the quality of engineering, but, he did use pencil lines to assist him which I found interesting (depth setting I think), given the Leigh people who like to tease us 'ratters! The joints were spot on, but the tearout did concern me slighlty, he rather glossed over it and said he had a "blunt" cutter. :? Anyway, it answer to the original poster, it does take quite a long time to setup, and I have limited enough time as it is. One thing I particularly like about the 'rat is you can use it immediately.

I mean basic Leigh machine? £300? Finger Joint template = £235, Set of three "isoloc = £430, Leigh M&T jig £630.... You ain't gonna see any change out of £1600 for all the bits? (I know it's a bit cheeky to include the M&T, but it comes "for free" in the 'rat!!! :lol: So... instead of thinking the 'rat is expensive, you could, in a way, consider it just a third the price of a Leigh, with all that additional flexibility and functionality.

The woodrat always gets knocked for cost, but if you add up the price of all the individual bits of the Leigh - it's real expensive, and for every extra function you need, you have to buy a "new" bit, or template, or whatever. I like experimenting and trying new things and ideas out on the 'rat. I made some monster joints for the garden gate a while ago. The manual is much improved and has plenty of suggestions of other joints to make, if you are stuck for inspiration.

For a production environment, the Leigh looks superb, fast, accurate, reliable etc. But for a budding WW, who makes lots of different projects, unusual joints, experimenting etc. I'd recommend the 'rat. If I had a big enough project, with enough repetition, I'd really consider it (a leigh) , it would be a blessing. For the limited number of projects I have, I don't think it has enough flexibility to do other things.

I thnk the main thing to remember, is people have been cutting dovetails "by eye" for hundreds of years, with unbelieveable levels of accuracy, dare I say, better than machines? :shock: Let's be honest, we are only using machines (either 'rat or Leigh) to make joints we have neither the time to learn nor skill to do by hand.

Occurs to me I haven't actually answered the original question...

"I would like to know why woodrat users think they are so great? "

I like mine 'cos it's fun to use. The machine is limited by my imagination, not by my ability to purchase a new template, which had been designed by someone else. I also find it intuative, I can try something new. In the same way people build hundreds of jigs and bits and bobs to extend the abilities of thier tale saws and router tables, it also, should you be willing to invest the time to make a jig or two, have it's capabilities extended even further.

I think the picture (below) demonstrates most of what I've been trying to say. I built this almost entirely on my woodrat, and there's no dovetail in sight. I had this before a table saw, so it was used to square off all the ends, produce the M&T in the doors, the M&T for the shelves, including the extended pins for the walnut wedges you can see. It angled the top and bottom surfaces (not sure if they are shown in this picture)..... I produced mortices the full width of the sides, and also set it up (a bit like a router table) to produce the mouldings on the tongue and groove planks that make up the back. (in fact they aren't quite T&G as I wanted a more decorative, and complex profile).

click image for larger view

Adam

Any Leigh owners starting to panic they may have made the wrong purchase click below to soothe the pain.

 

[Alf]

Any Leigh owners starting to panic they may have made the wrong purchase click below to soothe the pain.

Chortle! :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

I know lets have a competition - how about a nice set of authentic looking close-as-possible-to-handcut looking dovetail, Leigh vs Woodrat -

Sorry, Leigh does accurate dovetails rather than hand cut replicas. Nice to see someone own up to the inaccuracies of the rat though. :twisted:

Move over Gill...

Adam, shame you live so far away, if you were closer I could show you how I set up my Leigh in under 2 minutes.

 

[Adam]

I know lets have a competition - how about a nice set of authentic looking close-as-possible-to-handcut looking dovetail, Leigh vs Woodrat -

Sorry, Leigh does accurate dovetails rather than hand cut replicas. Nice to see someone own up to the inaccuracies of the rat though. :twisted:

Move over Gill...

Adam, shame you live so far away, if you were closer I could show you how I set up my Leigh in under 2 minutes.

What I meant was, the mecca of any jig is to approach the thinness, and low slope angle of the hand-cutdovetail. Nothing to do with accuracy, it's mainly a limit of what manufacturers produce in terms of angle on their cutters. I thought (although I could be wrong as I haven't investigated it much) that Leigh owners were limited to just a single slope angle due to the need for a template? I don't think I was clear there, for me, hand-cut dovetails by someone competent (not me then) are the ultimate, in fineness of slope angle and thinness of neck, and no jig can come close, - they may look "perfect" i.e. no gaps - but the whole joint shape is determined by the availablility of TCT/HSS cutters, you cannot achieve anything as aesthetic as the neck on the cutter would have to be too fine and liable to snap. The woodrat cutters are better in that respect, but even then by no means ideal, both the Leigh and the 'Rat produce accurate 'tails, at least I do on mine - as do most other people. Adam

[who as a type A person in John Elliotts recent posting actually handcut his last batch of dovetails, as, having handmade the entire rest of the box, was told by his teacher to stop moaning and get on with cutting them by hand. ]

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry Adam, couldn't resist it - I knew what you meant.

I am interested in trying a rat but can't find a second hand one - no response to my request

 

[Adam]

Sorry Adam, couldn't resist it - I knew what you meant.

I am interested in trying a rat but can't find a second hand one - no response to my request

In all seriousness, I reckon anyone making a range of projects would find many uses for it. Like you say once you are up and running with a Leigh, and are happy and fast with it, their is no reason to change. What you are buying then is a controllable 3-dimensionable router table - effictively a milling machine - which I'm sure you can see the benefit of :roll: , with workpiece holding. All I can suggest is to find someone close enough to borrow one from (difficult, 'cos I don't like lending my tools out) or find someone to give you a "home" demonstration, or take a course, if you need extra confidence before purchase. Certainly I made this:

On both these, it was the M&T where it excelled itself, over and above other techniuqes as I was able to produce a stepped, pronged tenon, with repeatably - which was very handy. It got used for all sorts in these projects, it's the repeatability aspect I like. There are however, no dovetails on these projects, I just found it handy to use it in one of it's "other" modes.

Adam

 

[Anonymous]

Adam, I love that table (for your sister? I think).

Only thing about the rat that gives me cause for concern is the scrubbing brush under the table for slot cutting. I can believe that it works OK but have serious doubts about safety and accuracy - appears to be the least thought-out piece of the machine. Have you used the brush at all, or is there a better way?

I might bite the bullet and go for one as I am due to have an important operation this afternoon and will be at home 'recuperating' for a while but won't be able to use hand tools.

 

[andrewm]

Only thing about the rat that gives me cause for concern is the scrubbing brush under the table for slot cutting. I can believe that it works OK but have serious doubts about safety and accuracy - appears to be the least thought-out piece of the machine. Have you used the brush at all, or is there a better way?

Tony,

I went on Mike Humpries' Woodrat course at the end of last year and it was well worth it. He is none to complimentary about the scrubbing brush either and has a table that clamps onto the woodrat and is a much better proposition.

If you are thinking of getting a 'rat it might be worth doing the course first. If you come away liking it then it will stand you in good stead from the outset in the best way of doing things and if you come away not liking the 'rat then you will have spent less than buying one to find out.

Andrew

 

[Adam]

Adam, I love that table (for your sister? I think).

Thankyou

Only thing about the rat that gives me cause for concern is the scrubbing brush under the table for slot cutting. I can believe that it works OK but have serious doubts about safety and accuracy - appears to be the least thought-out piece of the machine. Have you used the brush at all, or is there a better way?

Only for scrubbing me nails! Err, I have no idea what the scrubbing brush is for, but yes, one did come in the box, and several years later, its still in use next to the kitchen sink!

I might bite the bullet and go for one as I am due to have an important operation this afternoon and will be at home 'recuperating' for a while but won't be able to use hand tools.

Best of luck for that then, I hope you recouperate as quickly as possible. Nothing like a new toy to cheer you up. You would need assistance to set/lift it into position - and the box it arrives in is really quite heavy. The unit itself doesn't weigh an insignificant amount, so need good mounting points. Once up and running, if you were only doing little things like jewellry boxes etc, I'd imagine you'd be OK.

Adam

Adam

 

[Alf]

Only thing about the rat that gives me cause for concern is the scrubbing brush under the table for slot cutting. I can believe that it works OK but have serious doubts about safety and accuracy - appears to be the least thought-out piece of the machine. Have you used the brush at all, or is there a better way?

It actually works surprisingly well, and accurately. But for maximum safety I've taken to using the table and tunnel technique. <rummage, rummage...> Here ya go, Hawkmoth shows it here and here. The table is a horribly under-promoted shop-made add-on that's worth its weight in gold. <further rummage> Various shots of mine here.

I might bite the bullet and go for one as I am due to have an important operation this afternoon and will be at home 'recuperating' for a while but won't be able to use hand tools.

Ooo, good luck then. Not using hand tools? The cure must be worse than the disease! :wink:

Cheers, Alf