Extract for DW733 Thicknesser

[MG1977]

Okay, I've been through a number of different threads on extractors (chip/dust) and my head is a little spinning (like a cyclone you might say!! :lol: )

I was totally gobsmacked by the amount of waste that the DW733 can chuck out and my current vac (Nilfisk Alto Aero 25-21) just can't suck fast enough.

My budget is limited and currently thinking about the extractors noted below with the hope to add a DIY traffic cone cyclone at some point when time permits.

Question is will I be disappointed? and is it pretty much impossible to manage dust and chip extraction from the lower priced (under £200) machines?

I tend to take more than the BS standard number of tea breaks so I don't really need a continuous use machine. Any others I should be considering?

These are the options I've looked up so far:

£90 SIP 01929 4"(0.5 Micron, 50L capacity, 1415m3/hr (really? seems high!) 1100W brush motor)
£115 Axminster RDC100H 4" (1 Micron, 35L capacity, 180m3/hr, 85dBA 1100W brush motor)
£130 RP DX1000 4" (0.5Micron, 45L capacity, 1900m3/hr, 1000W brush motor) not sure why this is cheaper than the RSDE1 when the specs seem identical?
£135 SIP 01924 4" (1 Micron, 80L capacity, 1155m3/hr, 750w induction motor)
£175 Axminster Hobby Series AWEDE2 4"(30 Micron, 57L capacity, 850m3/hr, 73dBA 750W induction motor)
£190 RP RSDE1 4" (0.5 Micron, 45L capacity, 190m3/hr, 1000W brush motor)
£190 Metabo SPA1200 4" (Filter not spec'd, 65L capacity, 900m3/hr, 550W induction (assumed) motor)
£205 CamVac GV286 4" single motor (0.5 Micron, 36L capacity, 190m3/hr, 1000W brush motor)

I'm leaning towards the Axminster AWEDE2 or the RP RSDE1...should I be looking elsewhere? :?

Cheers

Michael

PS other tools I would use with this would be my DW707 mitre saw, table mounted Makita 3612C router and Kity 613 bandsaw (if I can figure out how to extract from it!!)

 

[Ian down london way]

I've also got a DW-733. I did a WIP (wip-cogitation-designed-by-clayton-boyer-t65479.html) which includes stuff about my extraction. You may find that useful / interesting.
Because I wanted to 'plumb in' the extraction for the thicknesser, it is a long (4") tube from the thicknesser to the extractor. Hence I had to use an extractor that could pull a long column of air. if you do go for something like the AWEDE2 4, then I am pretty sure you can't extend the inlet tube, as the pressure drops as the tube gets longer - its the nature of the way they suck - I used to understand the physics but its gone now.

With my system, the 4'inch tubes do get blocked occassionally (its about a 4 meter run from the thicknesser to the extractor), if I'm taking a thick, or wide, slice of wood off. I think having clear tubing is essential, not only for the fun, but I can see where the blockage, is, and whack the sides to encourage it along. My corner bits (using flexible corrigated pipe) I think wasn't great, as it often has blockages starting there, and then backing up.

 

[Ian down london way]

Ahhh - coming back to me.
If you want to extend the hose, I think (THINK!) you need a vacumm extractor, like the RDC100H in preference to the AWEDE2.

Is that right peoples?

 

[MG1977]

Thanks Ian...great WIP btw. I admit to having gotten a little distracted from work this afternoon as I meaner through your post and links to various marble machines. Some amazing future projects there!

So taking out the low pressure, high volume 'chip extractors' I'm left with the following options:

£90 SIP 01929 4"(0.5 Micron, 50L capacity, 1415m3/hr (really? seems high!) 1100W brush motor)
£115 Axminster RDC100H 4" (1 Micron, 35L capacity, 180m3/hr, 85dBA 1100W brush motor)
£130 RP DX1000 4" (0.5Micron, 45L capacity, 1900m3/hr, 1000W brush motor) not sure why this is cheaper than the RSDE1 when the specs seem identical?
£190 RP RSDE1 4" (0.5 Micron, 45L capacity, 190m3/hr, 1000W brush motor)
£205 CamVac GV286 4" single motor (0.5 Micron, 36L capacity, 190m3/hr, 1000W brush motor)

The Axminster and Record Power models seem to have the best warranties, but I can't for the life of me see any advantage to say the Record Power RSDE1 over the Axminster RDC100H...certainly not £75 worth of difference.

If anyone has any thoughts on these I'd love to hear them... the RDC100H can be had with accessories for £152...that is seeming like a good deal at the moment.

Lets see what people think...

 

[SammyQ]

Michael, you dropped the HVLP models? Is Ian right about loss of pressure? I have an older version of the Axminster Hobby Series AWEDE2 (bought from WoodBloke Rob some years ago) and it does a TERRIFIC job on my 733! I am not saying Ian is wrong, but as a practicing scientist, I am intrigued; as a woodworking hobbyist about to extend his existing network of 4" HVLP flexy under the floor etc, I am paying great attention. :-|

Into the bargain, I'm asthmatic and I assure you, I have no problems with planing teak or similar allergenic woods, provided I put the collector just outside my workshop door, in a kind of carport I have there, so dust clouds are minimal. Also, to both yourself and Ian, try 'swept corners' soil piping - you have no snags to catch chips on, and then you can use transparent for the straight runs.

A FAR bigger problem is the racket of the DW; I used to live under the flightpath for BallyKelly and the 733 on startup could put Shackleton and Vulcan bombers to shame!

Sam

 

[MG1977]

Thanks Sam, that's good to hear. I mainly dropped the HVLP because of the lower filtration, but having read up a little on the different extract types it seems the vacuum types are more flexible as they can be stepped down to use with my power tools too.

As I'm using this in only a part time workshop I was also a little worried about size.

Ultimately I can see a use for both types, but the Record DX1000 seems to be coming in as favourite at the moment, although the RDC100H at £152 also might be an option as that comes with a good accessory pack that would cost another £30ish for the record.

Decisions, decisions.... :wink:

 

[kmp]

While I find this an interesting subject I'm sorry to say that it has added somewhat to my already confused thinking. As I suffer from a serious Sinus problem I have been trying to decide which type of extractor to get for my table saw/planer and lathe particularly as I am new to woodworking and don't really know which way the hobby will take me. Noise is also a factor for me as the workshop is close to the neighbour.

I already have a Numatic NV750 which is very good but a little limited in capacity so I was thinking of the AWEDE2 with the fine filter attached for the larger chip producing machines. Hoping that the 1 micron filter would enable me to survive without having to constantly wear a mask. My dilema here was which to get the fine filer or to get a separate ceiling mounted filter which claim 0.5 micron filtration.

I have read that most dangerous dust is below 1 micron so am worried by Ian's comments re the suitability of this type of extractor although I don't have any long runs and intend to move the extractor close to the machine in use. I understand Michael's (nearly) decision but the noise of the DX1000 would be a major problem for me.

Any thoughts on if my situation would better suit the AWEDE2 than Michaels would be much appreciated.

Best regards

Keith

 

[Ian down london way]

The combination of the DW733 and my vacumm extractor means I wear ear defenders, and don't do it after 10pm. Less of an issue when only the dust extrator is being used.

Is there any way to test what level of dust particles there are in the air? I had a tear in the bag of my main extractor, and I'm pretty sure some nasty stuff was getting through but I couldn't see anything. It would be good to test.

(I have now checked. My main vacuum extractor, which is no longer sold by Axminster, was badged as a Yorkleen Ltd WV1000. There was some chat on this a few years ago: no-more-axminster-wv1000-t30664.html). I've recently bought some replacement bags for it, which was no problem). Oh wow - Yorkleen still sell them, but at a very high price - £320).

I've also got a ceiling hanging extractor. However I've seen a lot of articles which say that's the worst place to put them, to clear a room, as dust settles. One should but them low down. I've yet to move mine (not least because I've got headroom, not, um, low room).

I must try some of that smooth bore corners. May make a real difference - thanks for that SammyQ. B&Q I hope.

 

[SammyQ]

Right. I am going to risk being labelled a 'stuck-in-the-mud-zealot'.

I believe, with some confusion, that we are looking at several themes intermingling in this thread.

Dust.
a) Chips, shavings, lumps, are all dealt with by a HVLP system which is essentially a big bladed system, running quietly for the most part, with a one- or two- bag outlet. Planers, saw, thicknessers.
b) Fine particles need a LVHP system, like the average vacuum cleaner, with a 'turbine' blade system and they are generally screamin' demons. Routers, sanders, hand-held planers and circular saws.

Filtering.
a) Two bags of varying quality. Best used outside if in doubt about quality of fabric. CHECK FOR TEARS AND HOLES.
b) Overhead air cleaner (punkah-wallah?) with what our 'cousins' call furnace filters Hmm, debatable levels of micron-dealing-with.
c) Facemask. Good, if you research well and use in conjunction with other methods.

Can I just say, I think this area of personal safety is SO confusing? Bil Pentz's site is an endurance test, but has some viable cyclonic data. Phil Thien's site was and is a revelation of simplicity, with some lingering doubts re efficiency. Manufacturers are hyperbolically selective with 'facts' and carefully chosen 'units' that gild their lily in rosy hues.

My personal experience of Camvac and its clone (the Record dustbin) were appalling; their noise levels were simply unacceptable; I suspect they are a hybrid system, sort of vacuum cleaner with knobs-on.......remember: camel = horse designed by committee? :-"

Having thoroughly stirred up the hornets' nest, I will now claim asylum in Lower Burkino Fasso, where correspondents may have trouble locating me.......

Sam

 

[MG1977]

No labelling here Sam...I think what you've said makes perfect sense.

It seems that there is no one-stop solution but decisions have to be made on the basis of what do you value more? I always wear ear plugs when using power tools and never work beyond 5/6 pm, so noise is less of an issue for me than space or fine dust collection. Oh and I'm guessing everything is a compromise of one sort at this budget end of the market!! :roll:

It also doesn't help that I'm terrible at making decisions!! #-o

I do tend to wear a drager P3 dust mask most of the time though, so maybe my fine dust worries are less important than I think?

 

[The Bear]

Sam
Can I ask what you found appalling about the camvac, was it just the noise? Which model did you have (how many motors) and was it plumbed into a gated system or straight on one machine. Thanks

Mark

 

[SammyQ]

Mark, I don't have a Camvac. I experienced the dual motor version in another woodworker's workshop - similar in size to my own small place - and I was thunderstruck by the racket. The beast may or may not pull a lot more dust than the extractor I use, I don't know and I don't want to; the level of noise was amazing and that precluded me considering it as an 'upgrade'. I subsequently had a similar experience with a second acquaintance and his Record Camvac-look-alike. The original Camvac was plumbed into a (I think) 4", maybe 6" system and at the time mine host had just got it onto the first machine.

I suspect, that if I did my homework, I would probably find it was the old chestnut of induction motor cacophony, but I was already happy with my setup, so I simply filed the experiences under "interesting, but unimportant" and didn't bother sussing out model numbers etc as there was no way I was buying one!

Sam, preparing to be the target of 'satisfied' Camvac owners, who have already promised their first-born to the machine, so pleased are they by its suckability......

 

[SammyQ]

Michael, I agree with you about budget considerations etc, but I am a little concerned with:

"I do tend to wear a drager P3 dust mask most of the time though, so maybe my fine dust worries are less important than I think?"

Just be careful. If you use any machine in a confined space, with a dust mask, but take off the dust mask shortly after switching off the beastie, there COULD be some 'suspended' particles? I try very hard to keep my AGS saw, 733 planer, sanders. routers, etc OUTSIDE my hand tool workbench space. I have purchased an Axi fan/dust filter arrangement for above said hand bench, but I am still going to be chary of bringing the big dust creators inside.

I'm actually reading up on Phil Thein/Matthias Wendel at the moment, considering a hybrid of Matthias's curved blade fan, positioned above a Thein baffle to extract most dust? A Mike Garnham 'drop box' is also a possibility, but space is critical, so whatever I chose will have to be volume and cost efficient.

Sam

 

[MG1977]

Don't worry Sam, I almost always keep the dust mask on once I begin work and only remove it for tea breaks. The reusable drager masks are pretty comfortable, don't restrict airflow and get a pretty good seal (unless you happen to sneeze!!)

Anyway, on the subject of drop boxes/ cyclones/ Thein's etc....do these work with HVLP chip collectors? Because I'm wondering if that might be a solution I hadn't considered. Although, I'm guessing these are still not able to be stopped down to 38/50mm for powertools, even if the cyclone were to help collect the fine dust?

Just trying to think around the problem...

Michael

 

[SammyQ]

"do these work with HVLP chip collectors?"

They should. Provided you make sure that the air flow is unrestricted, i.e. as much surface area on the route through the set up as there is on the inlet to the fan. There may be a slow-down of air SPEED, leading to dust deposition (expanded chamber/drop box idea) or a speed-up of same, leading to increased particle velocity (cyclone and Thein) throwing finer particles downward, beyond the outlet to the extractor.


"I'm guessing these are still not able to be stopped down to 38/50mm for powertools"

Yerss. If you reduce the area of an inlet to a suction system, you must therefore speed up the airspeed through that narrowed opening? In theory, yes. In practice, no. I read an article years ago pointing out that the Physics of air flow made this a greater strain on the motor/impeller. Matthias Wendel bumbles around this point when he is making a wooden fan on his website and he discovers that the amperage of his motor reaches unacceptablely high values when he fails to consider it.

I still reckon a superannuated vacuum cleaner is still the best for these, attached to a cyclone, or best of all, just use a pensioned-off Dyson? This route, collecting fines, as opposed to chips, is probably (and unfortunately) where the most potential lies for air pollution, so this is the trickiest one to achieve an equable solution to. The real weak point has to be the filtration inside the cleaner. Even Dysons aren't perfect....

Sam

 

[MG1977]

I thought I should update on how things panned out for me...

In the end I concluded that I needed good but compact dust extraction above all other things, but with the 4" connector that my thicknesser requires so it could double up as a chip extractor too.

Despite the cheaper single motor vacs having a 4" port, I was left with the distinct impression from a number of forumites that they would not do a very good job with the volumes required.

This left me with a decision to either suck it and see, make do with the limited budget and risk kicking myself later on, or accept that I needed to be more realistic regarding the spec and budget appropriately.

So, having been stung with cheap tools in the past (Rexon sliding mitre saw that lasted 3 months and an Erbauer router that had an off-centre chuck!) I bit the bullet and raised the budget to look at the twin motor offerings.

So either a Record Power RX4000, Axminster NVD750, or a Camvac 386 twin 4"

This seemed a much simpler decision. I read that the Record Power was easily knocked over (Motor not fixed down) and the Camvac came with no accessories so became really expensive quite quick.

I'll admit to a Numatic bias here, since I've had a number of henry hoovers over the years and their quite local to me being from the southwest!! But since it came with a full accessories pack and 20 hepaflo filter bags I decided to take the plunge.

OH

MY

WORD!!

It may just be because this is my first taste of real suction, but wowser do this thing suck...and blow too! The ability to attach an extract hose and pipe to the outside not only reduced the airflow whistle, but also takes outside anything that does get through the triple stage filtering.

I'm very impressed with this purchase, despite at £360 being almost double my original budget. Time will tell if I made the right decision, and if I remember too I'll pop back and update on how I'm getting on.

But for now can I just say a quick thank you to everyone who contributed to helping my firstly understand the problem and the limitations of what I was trying to do, and giving me food for thought as to where I might go with this in the future.

Cheers