Experience Wanted

[riclepp]

Hi Folks

Not sure in this is in the right place (sure the mods will move it if need be). I am currently a Health and Safety Consultant, but am totally fed up with this role and therefore I am looking at changing my career for a final time. I have undertaken some training with Peter Sefton and due to do some with Dodge. My father was a cabinet maker and he taught me it (allbeit Limited) when I was younger. I know wont get rich, but all am now interested in is doing a job I enjoy and get a lot from and get some cash. I am currently converting my garage to a workshop (got to start somewhere). So as you can see I am able to get training, but what I cant get at the moment is enough experience. So this is what I hope someone maybe able to help or can point me in the right direction. I am looking for a firm or single cabinet maker who works at weekends who want some free labour in return for the experience of full on cabinet making.
There is no need to quote H&S rules and regulations or even fire regs, because this is what I do. I am an adult and am happy to sign wavers or if need do your H&S i.e. risk assessments.

So if anybody is able to help and not a million miles from Essex, then give me a shout (PM or to relpy to this message). Anything is acheivable.

Many thanks in anticpation.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Richard did indeed join us last year on a one week course, I can vouch for him being a good guy to have around the workshop and I am very pleased if we helped give him the bug (sorry Rich if it may have turned out to be a life changer)
Best of luck and hope you get a foot on the ladder.
Cheers Peter

 

[riclepp]

Bump....no body wants any free labour

 

[MARK.B.]

Sorry Richard i cant help but i do wish you all the best in your new undertaking.

 

[marcus]

nobody wants free labour

The difficulty you have is that your labour will not be free — it will cost, because you will make mistakes, which are expensive, plus it would take time to teach you stuff. With the best will in the world you would be in the way a lot of the time for a long time before you became productive.

In spite of your comments re. health and safety, for a one man band to take you on would quite possibly mean upgrading the workshop to meet H and S standards (expensive and disrupting) because, no matter what you sign, if the workshop isn't up to regs and you did get injured the owner would be absolutely clobbered and probably end up out of business (if not worse).

Finally most of us like to take at least some of the weekend off!

For what it's worth I would suggest using your garage to take on jobs you know you can do at the weekend, no matter how small or simple, and build up from there, and fit in any courses you have time for and can afford. Also some college have evening classes in carpentry which may not be quite what you are looking for, but teach useful skills and are a way of getting a foot in the door of the commercial world. Or see if you can find someone to take you on as a full time apprentice (not easy, I know, if you are over 25 ish).

Sorry I can't be more positive, but someone may come along and prove me wrong! Where there's a will there'a a way — good luck!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Doubting Thomas's have a useful role Richard, to strengthen your resolve!

Go for it old son, call a few local firms direct, take a classified ad, do a leaflet drop round your neighbourhood....every rejection is just more information about how to change your approach

 

[marcus]

Doubting Thomas's have a useful role Richard, to strengthen your resolve!

I wasn't being a doubting thomas. I was pointing out some possible reasons why there have been few replies and suggested several alternative approaches to the problem that may get a better result. I'm a hundred percent behind anyone who wants to 'live the dream', but it helps to be realistic, and to have some insight into why the approach one is taking isn't working.

No one would be more pleased than me if Richard gets taken on on the basis he hopes, but it's best to be clear about it: in asking someone to take you on as a learner for one or two days a week you are not offering free labour, you are asking for free training! When someone takes on an apprentice in the normal way of things they are given financial support from the government, plus the trainee goes to college for one or two days a week, which takes off some of the training burden and makes the whole thing more feasible.

That being the case, it makes sense to look at other ways towards the goal as well. I would be delighted if someone were to prove me wrong; there may be someone out there whose needs match your own, in which case, great! But if there isn't then there are other ways towards what you want.

 

[Lee J]

I'm working in IT now but I've set up my own workshop in a converted garage. I'm self teaching, self funding my mistakes and self promoting myself. I attend a furniture making course once a week at college which will get me a piece of paper that says I've learnt to make furniture but the real learning comes from inside my workshop. The internet is a fantastic resource for learning. This forum alone can prepare you for starting a new project by giving you vital tips and experiences. Just look at my thread on routing the coffee table. I know how to do it but I just wanted a few expert tips and advise before I started it.

I tried the free labour road too but established craftsmen and big companies don't see fit to take the massive risks involved.

So I say do it yourself. Teach yourself and become better for it.

 

[doctor Bob]

So I say do it yourself. Teach yourself and become better for it.

I think what experience in a shop does is give you an idea of how quick you need to work to make a living and the techniques to speed every thing up.

 

[marcus]

Paradoxically you may find you have better luck if you say that you'll do anything and ask to be paid (minium wage). There is all sorts of messiness to do with expectations involved in working for 'free' that I think most employers would want to stay away from. My partner gave two people a chance in her workshop on this basis, and on both occasions everyone ended up dissatisfied and annoyed. It leads to a lack of clarity about what the relationship is, and what expectations are, and that is asking for trouble.

It might perhaps be feasible for a larger operation to take you on on saturdays to sweep the floor, stack timber, make tea, or do any of the other odd jobs like that left over from the week, and pay you to do it — and then you would at least have a foot in the door and would get a feel for how things work. If it were me I would try that tack.

I think what experience in a shop does is give you an idea of how quick you need to work to make a living and the techniques to speed every thing up.

+1. You can learn this stuff yourself in the end but it REALLY helps to see it in action.

Another thing you might like to think about is finding an 'ally' nearby — someone hoping to do the same sort of thing as you. Two heads are better than one, and you can help each other out with tools, contacts and techniques. And share the load on big jobs. Much more relaxing to feel you're not alone!

 

[tomatwark]

I would echo the point made about productivity but there is also the issue that if someone has paid employees, seeing someone who will work for nothing causes resentment along the lines of that guy is taking my overtime etc.

I am sure that the will be someone out there who will be prepared to give you some training on the job.

But crack on in your garage and at college and learn as you go.

One thing that Bob touched on is speed of working, which if you are going to work for someone else in the end is something you need to crack, I would set yourself goals and also keep a note of how long it is taking you to do things so you can see where you need to speed up.

Most of us who work in the trade have seen, people fresh from full time college turn up and take 3 days to make something that should take 1, most bosses will expect that at the start but will not put up with it for long.

Good luck

Tom

 

[Lee J]

'You can have it done now... or you can have it done right'

is my motto

 

[riclepp]

Thanks for the advice guys.

 

[mailee]

It would be a better option if you could find a friend or colleague who does it as a hobby and has a small shop to help him out. This is how i started after gaining an interest in woodwork. Combine with this setting up a small shop doing it as a hobby with what you learn and then when the requests start to build up then take the plunge full time. I did this around three years ago now and haven't looked back.....so far. :lol: :wink: With all of the self employed woodworkers their main concern would be like me the insurance, HSE, time wasted which puts us all off the idea. I am still a one man band and will remain so for a long time yet due to all of the rulings and red tape in employing someone. JMHO. :wink:

 

[doctor Bob]

I am still a one man band and will remain so for a long time yet due to all of the rulings and red tape in employing someone. JMHO. :wink:

It's fairly easy to be honest.... just scaremongers which make it sound hard.

 

[custard]

Richard, good luck to you!

I don't know if it's any use to you, but I've got a fairly well equipped workshop in south west Hampshire (Felder combination, Hammer bandsaw, Nova lathe, vacuum veneer press, plus more Festool and Lie Nielsen stuff than you can shake a stick at), if you ever want some hands on experience with any of that you're welcome to drop by.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

So to summarise......as Harry Enfield would say: you're looking for a tall, short, fat, thin, round, square, paid, unpaid, alone and with someone opportunity

Good luck

 

[riclepp]

It would be a better option if you could find a friend or colleague who does it as a hobby and has a small shop to help him out. This is how i started after gaining an interest in woodwork. Combine with this setting up a small shop doing it as a hobby with what you learn and then when the requests start to build up then take the plunge full time. I did this around three years ago now and haven't looked back.....so far. :lol: :wink: With all of the self employed woodworkers their main concern would be like me the insurance, HSE, time wasted which puts us all off the idea. I am still a one man band and will remain so for a long time yet due to all of the rulings and red tape in employing someone. JMHO. :wink:

I am just finishing transforming my garage into a working workshop, the electrics are being finished this weekend. I have the gumption to see this through and have the spine to do it. But the one thing I can't get at the moment is experience of a real workshop with deadlines, profit margins, mistake, customers and the like. I get training form Peter Sefton and Dodge, but the hands on is a little light for me at present. I don't mind if someone said here are some scrap offcuts, make this and you got 2 hours or whatever and I am happy doing that in my workshop. That is all well and good, but sometimes it is great to ask a person there and then when you have a problem. As for red tape, it is a difficult as you want to make it. I do H&S every single day and to be honest people make in more difficult than it needs be, so that is a prety lame excuse by anyone to be honest (and no insult is meant). I think I am reasonable in skill, but only others can confirm this. I can see and understand your anxieties as being a one man band, and I do wish you well with you endeavours and sucess and hope it remains steadfast for you and for the future.
As I have a wife, 2 kids, and menagary of animals and a house to keep, i cannot afford the luxury of jacking in my job and go to college, so I have to do this whenever I can, until such a time I can do this full time.

But as I said earlier, many thanks for the advice.

 

[carlb40]

Richard i know it is not ideal as you wish to be out there actually working for someone. You are trying with the training etc.

If you don't manage to get anything sorted. How about members of the forum giving you mini challenges to be done within a time scale? It may help you out with what you require?

I don't mean someone to say you have one weekend to make a queen anne dresser etc, but more realistic items. It would help to give you chance to work to times, plus any items made that are suitable can go in a portfolio for prospective employers.

 

[marcus]

As for red tape, it is a difficult as you want to make it. I do H&S every single day and to be honest people make in more difficult than it needs be, so that is a prety lame excuse by anyone to be honest (and no insult is meant).

No one is making excuses for anything.