European saw makes/models versus North American?

[NickZ]

Hi,

I'm supposed to be moving next year. I'm trying to figure out if it makes sense to buy a new saw here on this side of the ocean or wait until after I move.

I'd rather wait OTOH it seems prices can be quite a bit higher. OTOH I'm having trouble figuring out apples to apples without any idea of the European market.

Can anybody give some names of European saws that would be similar [equal quality] to the General 10" saw [ MODEL 50-260 ] Or I guess the Delta Unisaw.

Thanks

 

[74extiger]

First off, which way are you moving? I live in California and bought the Canadian-made 10" TS, the model 50-350. That is the right tilting version of the 50-650. Cost was $2200 on sale with a 5hp motor.

The model you cited is made by General in China and is about half the price.

For one year while my new home was being constructed in the Redwood forests 200 miles north of San Francisco I agonized over choosing a table saw (benchsaw, to you). The General I bought came with a $900 sliding table, and it was the closest thing I could get to a Knapp or Felder saw.

Both are made in Austria. Superbe quality. But costing around $15,000 in North America. Not sure of the price in Europe. I visited the U.S. importers of both companies, and the shops of about 5 owners who use it.

Though I compromised, I believe the quality of the General is close to the European saws such as Knapp, Felder, SMC, Martin and Altendorf. But the design and features fall far short. A Knapp weighs 1100 lbs. My General weighs 520.

European Format Saws (sliders) have a table that comes right up to the blade. Mine slides 10 inches from the blade.

European saw must meet far stricter safety codes. Thus they have better blade guards with dust collection in the guard. Safety equipment on all North Amer. saws hasn't changed since 1950. Seriously.

The ultimate reason I chose General was that I'm just an amateur, so a Format saw from Europe would be akin to buying a Ferrari to go to the grocery store.

Gary Curtis

 

[74extiger]

Brands and models.... Felder KF700. Knapp TS410. SMC is called Mini Max here in America, so model numbers will be different.

An Altendorf or Martin would cost as much as a house, so look elsewhere. Sheppach is a name I see often in Brit wood magazines, but I have no idea of the quality.

Gary Curtis

 

[NickZ]

No I'm moving to Europe. The little info I can find on the Felder is it's outside of my price range.

 

[Philly]

Nick
I have an Xcaliber 806, a 10 inch Unisaw clone. Very well priced and exactly (I think) what you are looking for.
link
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Newbie_Neil]

Hi Nick

Welcome to the forum.

If you do bring a saw over, you'll also need to consider the power implications.

Cheers
Neil

 

[ProShop]

No I'm moving to Europe. The little info I can find on the Felder is it's outside of my price range.

Nick,
Have a look at the Hammer range, made by Felder.

HERE

 

[NickZ]

Thanks. Are the prices for the K3 on the Hammer website list price or what I could expect to pay?

 

[ProShop]

Thanks. Are the prices for the K3 on the Hammer website list price or what I could expect to pay?

More or less, they do from time to time however have various promotions and open days with discounts. It's best to email or phone for a price.
They may be able to send you a UK catalogue.

Hope this helps

 

[Sailor]

Hi,

It might be worth reading through this Topic:
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=527&highlight=
It's relating to Forum Users Table Saws, so will give you an idea of whats in use over here.

HTH

Colin

 

[NickZ]

Thanks. Are the prices for the K3 on the Hammer website list price or what I could expect to pay?

More or less, they do from time to time however have various promotions and open days with discounts. It's best to email or phone for a price.
They may be able to send you a UK catalogue.

Hope this helps

Yes. It seems with similar setups the prices are fairly close. Doesn't seem to make sense to buy here and deal with all the issues.

Thanks

 

[NickZ]

It's relating to Forum Users Table Saws, so will give you an idea of whats in use over here.

Thanks but other then having a few Record chisels most of the names are just a jumble of letters to me -)

 

[wrightclan]

Hi Nick,

It depends on what you want to do with your saw, if you're only interested in buying new, etc.

If you really want a North American, style cabinet saw and you really want to buy new, bringing one over may be the most cost-effective way. I don't know what your shipping/duty costs will be though. Over here, Excalibur is the most readily available new saws of that type (a Unisaw clone.) Also Jet supersaw can be considered in that category.

I am an American, and have bought a used Startrite. Saws like this and Wadkin, can be had for a song, and are well-made, solid machines, if you want to go the used route. If you go the used route, you may want to upgrade the fence.

If you want to use a dado :shock: blade, your only real option is to use a North American style model, or one of the older British ones such as Startrite--not sure about Wadkin.

The European models will have some more advanced safety features. Newer ones will have electric braking, and all (except some very old ones)will have riving knives. If you want to use it for crosscutting sheet material; one of the European ones with a good sliding table may be your best option. That said, if you're handy with a bit of metalworking, there are some sliding tables that can be modified to fit most cabinet type saws.

Hope I've helped and not made a difficult decision moreso. If my points raise any questions, feel free to ask.

Brad

 

[NickZ]

If you want to use it for crosscutting sheet material; one of the European ones with a good sliding table may be your best option.

Hi,
I'm not married to a cabinet saw. It was more to set a guideline for the quality level I was looking at. To be honest I'd rather not ship a saw. The idea of trying to deal with parts etc doesn't appeal to me.

The European saws do look well setup to handle sheet stock. Considering I see myself handling a fair bit of this the first year or so while I fit out a house this is important. It's really the main reason for looking at a good quality saw. I could manage normally with something less but if I'm going to be cutting sheet after sheet after sheet a good machine will pay for itself.

No need for dados. One of the things I'm having trouble with is so many of the European machines seem to be combo machines.

 

[pewe]

If your primary aim is to cut sheet stock, perhaps this is a possible solution.

http://www.eurekazone.com/

I have used this with my powerful Triton circular saw to cut 4" x2" into 2" x 1" as well as to cut sheet very quickly, easily and as accurately as when I used a friends Scheppach 4010 panel saw.

The advantage (apart from cost and flexibility) is that the only space required to use it is the size of the panel (half of what you need for cutting on a panel saw)- the tool moves instead of the sheet.

I have introduced it to some professional contractors here in the UK and they are well pleased with the results compared to their other equipment.

 

[wrightclan]

The Scheppach saw, one with a cast-iron table. Like this: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/TS2500CI1

or this: http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psProdDet.cgi/TS4010CI1

might be worth considering.

Haven't used either, but as I understand it, they are well made machines. I have a few other machines in mind above and below this price range, but I think these are roughly in the league you are looking for. There will be users of these machines on this forum, who can advise you better as to their merits.

Brad

Mods help please, what am I doing wrong, that these are not showing up as links?
MODEDIT
Brad,
I trimmed the lines, the forum software does not seem to like the | in the end of the link, but the link still works with the end missing. :?
DaveL

 

[Scrit]

advantage (apart from cost and flexibility) is that the only space required to use it is the size of the panel (half of what you need for cutting on a panel saw0

In fact more like 1/4 - my 3.2 metre Altendorf requires a working space of 6.8 x 4.6 metres (approx.) to handle the full range of cuts (it has 1.3 metres to the right of the blade). If you are going the combo route in a small workshop then get either a turntable or a wheel kit for the machine - you'll need it.

As wrightclan says, though, there's enough old iron around here in the UK. If you want something specifically to handle panels, then go for the biggest sliding table you can lay your hands on - like a Startrite TA1250:

One advantage of European saws is that we've had riving knives on our saws for 30+ years - only the Far Eastern and US imports have splitters these days.

Scrit

 

[wrightclan]

advantage (apart from cost and flexibility) is that the only space required to use it is the size of the panel (half of what you need for cutting on a panel saw0

In fact more like 1/4 - my 3.2 metre Altendorf requires a working space of 6.8 x 4.6 metres (approx.) to handle the full range of cuts (it has 1.3 metres to the right of the blade). If you are going the combo route in a small workshop then get either a turntable or a wheel kit for the machine - you'll need it.

As wrightclan says, though, there's enough old iron around here in the UK. If you want something specifically to handle panels, then go for the biggest sliding table you can lay your hands on - like a Startrite TA1250:

One advantage of European saws is that we've had riving knives on our saws for 30+ years - only the Far Eastern and US imports have splitters these days.

Scrit

Scrit,

Where would a person get a sliding table like that, and could it be made to fit a TA175? Any idea of the going price?

Brad

 

[pewe]

How do you guys find the space for such big machines?

When I first used the scheppach it was to rip 2440mm (8ft) x 1220 (4ft) boards which I needed to cut to 150mm (5")wide x 2440mm and 300mm wide by 300mm long for shelving and wall panel work.

It was a nightmare because the workspace was only 4 metres (14ft) long.
I had to open the doors and turn the machine around and reposition it to get the length. I also had to position the saw in the middle of the space to get the boards to travel out the door, and that left very little space either side of the saw to lift the boards onto it. The other problem was the travel on the sliding table did not accommodate the length of travel needed to rip the board along its length so I had to hand cut it (with a circular saw) into 3 pieces to use the fence rather than the sliding table.

When I got the EZ Smart Guide system I also got the Smart table which only occupies a space of 1220 (4ft) x 600 (2ft) but with the sliding rails it supports a full board no problem. Using the 'Smart Repeaters' I was able to set them to a 150mm and cut all 7 strips from each board without taking the board off the table and all the cuts were accurate - whereas with the Scheppach I had to reposition the board on the table 7 times - whilst manoeuvering in a cramped space - and it took some effort to hold the board against the fence to ensure accurate straight cuts ( I wasted two lengths because I let the board slip away from the fence a couple of times.)

To cut the 7 lengths took only 3 minutes instead of the half hour it took with the table saw - not to mention the energy I consumed lifting and re-positioning boards.

At the time, as I most of the work I needed to use a table saw for was cutting long board strips I found that the EZ system was ideal.

But my next problem arose when I found that one of the walls I was putting the shelving uprights on was not perpendicular (the plasterer must have been drunk and there was a 10mm drift from the top to the bottom of the wall).

With the EZ system I simply set the guide at 150mm at one end of the board and 140mm at the other, ran the saw along the rail and hey presto perfect cut.
I wonder how I would have done that on the Scheppach!!

So I managed to turn what was going to be a time consuming and tedious job into a very quick and easy job for an outlay of less than £300.

My next job is to replace the skirting board in one of the rooms. The skirting board is very old, is 6" high and has a peculiar moulding along the top.

I can get a router cutter which has a very similar mould effect, but I was pondering how to create the lengths.
As it has to be painted I have decided to do it out of MDF board, cut to length on the EZ, and then I can mould the profiles on the edge using the EZ rail router attachment so I don't have to struggle pushing lengths of board across a router table whilst holding it upright to mould the edge.

So at the moment I am well pleased, and glad I don't have to keep borrowing my neighbours saw.

 

[Scrit]

Where would a person get a sliding table like that, and could it be made to fit a TA175? Any idea of the going price?

Sorry Brad, the large slider was specifically made for the TA300PS and the later TA1250 (like the PS, but cast-iron table I believe) - in fact you'll only ever find these machines fitted with a table - and aren't retro-fit items. Startrite are, sadly, no more. The only sources for a largish table on its own might be Felder, who used to list a sliding table upgrade for the BF5/BF6 machines which I reckon could be fitted to a Startrite, Rojek (try Jordan woodworking in the North East for them - they were the original importers for Rojek before APTC got them) who used to be willing to supply their sliding tables a few years back or Excalibur in the USA....

Scrit