Essence of Pine - for sale?

[Sam_Jack]

I rather (past tense) enjoyed Sellars – the practical teacher of basic carpentry skills. I confess I learned some good stuff watching his video and reading his posts etc. Brilliant stuff for the newcomer – basic chisel sharpening – plane tuning – scrub planes – even home-made routers, beading guides and even a rebate plane – I managed to make a bow-saw to his specifications – no better than the one I made aged 12 – still in operation – but ‘interesting’ non the less.

I respect his skill, but no more than I would any competent teacher – although he do leave out some ‘must know’ stuff – probably reserved for his ‘master class’. But, I am rapidly becoming disappointed with the ‘Sellars’ show – he ain’t a “life-style” guru and frankly, his personal, philosophical ramblings are becoming so far removed from practical ‘woodworking’ education as to border on the risible. I, for one am not remotely interested in ‘philosophy’ or ‘journals’ or even flogging the whole shebang to the unsuspecting public. Just improving my ‘woodworking’ as a skill to be the best I can make it. It is this which took Sellars to ‘stardom’ not the current ‘morning show’ blarney. It may well make him additional income – but he lost me as a fellow traveller with the latest load of cobblers – a video – selling ‘essence of Pine’.

I put 120 meters of stud wall 3 mts high (Pine) and used over 200 meters of roof truss (Kings and Queens both) – Oregon; not to mention three stories of staircase (which I designed and made in Box Brush). – Essence of Pine – I’m still trying to get the smell of it out of my work clothes. I am happy to learn all I can about fettling a hand plane; delighted with my extra sharp chisels, etc.– But “Pine essence” – really – it’s the dizzy limit. No more, not for me.

 

[powertools]

It was April the 1st.

 

[stuartpaul]

It was April the 1st.

But there's always some that falls on stony ground!

 

[Sam_Jack]

Pigs for sale?

Wuzn’t April 1 here and besides not being anywhere near stupid; I meant it – Sellars is a carpentry teacher nor some ‘life-style’ morning show host – and ‘jokes’ should be funny. But then; I’ll never argue with stupid people as they beat you with experience – neither will I wrestle with a pig – I only get dirty and the pig enjoys it. So happy April whatever to you too.

 

[thetyreman]

why watch the video then? then go and complain about it, the video is not serious, I don't get it.

 

[NickN]

I thought it was 'Parfum de Paul' which was the product for sale...? :shock: :lol: Watched the video yesterday and it did make me chuckle.

Looking through some of the comments on Paul's videos and blog posts though do remind me of this scene from the Life of Brian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka9mfZbTFbk

Of course that's not Paul's fault but that of some people who desperately seek something or someone to 'worship'.

I'm just glad that his videos got me into woodworking, and have respect for him for his decent teaching methods - but I wouldn't slavishly hang on his every utterance. I prefer to take a whole lot of advice from various sources and distill it down to make my own version of what works.

 

[Chris152]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYvcHS2 ... e=youtu.be

 

[custard]

I prefer to take a whole lot of advice from various sources and distill it down to make my own version of what works.

I guess most people on this forum would say something similar, but the hard fact is that the majority of newbies don't make all that much progress as woodworkers. Just look at the number of people who join this forum fizzing with enthusiasm, but a year or two later they disappear. I believe that taking direction from multiple sources, especially multiple internet sources, is a big part of the reason why the failure rate amongst new woodworkers is so high.

If you were to get a bunch of experienced woodworkers to all make the same item, and observed how they went about it, then you'd see a surprisingly wide range of different methods. They all get to the same place at the end, but they'll follow many different routes along the way. However, if you were to mix and match from their various techniques I'd bet a pound to a penny you'd end up in a mess. The reason is that many of those differences at one stage have critical implications for the work to be done at a later stage, but until you've got a fair bit of experience you won't fully appreciate how decisions at one stage impact your options at another stage.

Let me give you a specific example. It's very common for people to shop around amongst different dovetailing techniques. But what is hardly ever pointed out is that dovetailing is only one component of drawer assembly, and drawer assembly is intimately related to drawer fitting. So unless you have a proven, integrated method for the entire drawer making and fitting process then you're very likely to come unstuck.

The way I make a drawer usually begins with precisely fitting both the drawer front and back to the drawer cavity. Having done that I really don't want to change the dimensions of those components, so my precise method of dovetailing ensures the drawer sides will be very slightly proud of the front and back, by something like 0.5mm, which then gets planed away during the fitting stage. But unless you see my entire method of drawer making you're unlikely to appreciate why this detail is so critical.

And this is only one tiny example, if you were to look at my entire approach to furniture making you'd see much of it is similarly cross related, the designs I follow dictate the timbers I use, which influence the tools I choose, which then drives the sharpening techniques I employ, etc, etc. It's a spider's web of inter linked decisions.

I suspect that's why the traditional apprenticeship system was to spend 5-7 years in a single workshop learning one integrated approach. Only when you'd got that solid foundation under your belt did you set out as a "journeyman", to experience how other craftsmen in other workshops operate.

Most newcomers to woodworking today binge watch YouTube videos before they even pick up their first tool. I suspect for many of them it's a highly entertaining, but ultimately destructive process. Instead of learning and progressing in a structured, rational fashion, they're just getting bounced around between alternative approaches which are not just different, in many cases they're incompatible.

So back to Paul Sellers. There's lots not to like about his approach; his designs are locked in a 1970's era of knotty pine and swirly carpets so they're often pretty clunky, and his preachy tone can easily grate. But the one massive benefit he brings is a fully integrated approach to learning woodworking at the lowest possible cost in tools and materials, that takes you from absolute beginner to a level where you have the knowledge to sensibly evaluate alternative approaches. There are few if any other "internet teachers" out there who deliver this kind of fully comprehensive programme.

But taking advantage of that is an almost impossible challenge, because it requires someone to doggedly work through Paul Sellers projects while denying themselves the fun and entertainment of all the other stuff on the internet.

It's why I'm so gloomy about the prospects for hobby woodworking. As long as the internet plays such a dominant role I suspect the failure rate will continue at the current sky high level. And that two thirds or more of people taking up the hobby will abandon it within a couple of years, having failed to complete any worthwhile projects and become disillusioned and frustrated along the way.

 

[NickN]

Custard, while I agree with most of what you say as it's very true about information overload, there is one silver lining, I feel, to the Internet woodworking craze, and that is the far greater exposure the subject receives now compared to twenty years ago.
Or in other words, while 2/3 or even 3/4 of Internet woodworking newbies may well burn themselves out and never get anywhere, the small number who succeed probably still out numbers the few who succeeded twenty years ago, I hope anyway!
It does amaze me though how many comments on Sellers and other eminent woodworkers' blogs and videos are along the lines of: "just one more tool / just one more day off a week / just got to get a shed built" and are possibly from people who may never actually create anything in the end.

I do plan to take up a week of formal tuition at some point soon to improve my skills, Mr Sefton is my nearest one so that should be a very good investment.

 

[custard]

I do plan to take up a week of formal tuition at some point soon to improve my skills, Mr Sefton is my nearest one so that should be a very good investment.

It's impossible to invest your money in any more effective way, even a week's face to face training will catapult you many months along the learning curve. I hope you write up and post about your experiences once you've been.

 

[Tasky]

I am rapidly becoming disappointed with the ‘Sellars’ show – he ain’t a “life-style” guru and frankly, his personal, philosophical ramblings are becoming so far removed from practical ‘woodworking’ education as to border on the risible. I, for one am not remotely interested in ‘philosophy’ or ‘journals’ or even flogging the whole shebang to the unsuspecting public.

With modern technology affording so many more people so much moe access to the world, you need to have something distinctive so that you stand out from the rest.
Seriously, you can be an overnight sensation and be as famous as the Rolling Stones with just one song on YouTube going 'viral'... and then as quick as it hit, it can be over when some other little starlet with a catchy ditty and pretty kittens goes viral the very next day.

It's about your brand - "Hi, I'm Rob Cosman, Welcome To My Shop" and all that.

Sellers is a bit of a hippy anyway, so the whole essence of every tiny aspect of woodworking is his 'thing'. It's his absolute life. But you're more than welcome to skip over it. You don't have to read it and he doesn't insist you take an hour out to feel the crispness of the woodshavings on the floor in order to follow his videos, or anything.

Now, I went in my workshop yesterday and the air was thick with the smell of wood. I liked it. It was nice... but I didn't spend hours marvelling over it - I just smiled and then got on with pineappling up some M&T joints with my heavy-handed ham-fisting.

The whole "This is REAL woodworking", "tool that will last you a lifetime", "I've been doing this for 50 years" stuff is just the brand. Look past it... and learn to laugh when even he takes the mick out of himself.

 

[beechman]

I enjoy the Paul Sellars approach and style. He does seem to be a very decent human being. Then you mentioned Rob Cosman! I do not deny his skill, knowledge or work with the veterans - good on him. BUT I firmly believe that he is wittingly or unwittingly sending hordes of would-be woodworkers to other endeavours because of his ridiculous business model. An example was his "top ten tools" youtube video. I suppose this could have been considered as an introduction to woodworking. I added up the cost of the very tools in his top ten. If memory serves it was over $1,000 ! A would-be woodworkers reaction? "Think I'll take up offshore power boat racing - it's cheaper". Thanks Mr Cosman. The latest you tube sales pitch from him is for his newly designed bench screws. $500 a pop!! He says he cannot keep up with the orders flowing in. Great. But in my view he also has a responsibility to the whole of the woodworking community. He is doing it a great did-service. I think we should open a book on which month Rob Cosman introduces the first $1,500 chisel.

 

[custard]

I added up the cost of the very tools in his top ten. If memory serves it was over $1,000 ! A would-be woodworkers reaction? "Think I'll take up offshore power boat racing - it's cheaper".

Doesn't sound at all shocking, a reasonably comprehensive hand tool kit will set you back about £2,000. And if you want a decent selection of woodworking machinery and power tools then you're probably looking at additional spending in the range £3,000 to £5,000.

how-much-does-woodworking-cost-t106958.html

Woodworking isn't a cheap hobby, in fact it's a pretty expensive hobby. I've been as guilty as anyone of encouraging people to take up woodworking on the blithe assumption you can get yourself kitted out for a few hundred, a thousand at the most. I was miles out and I regret passing on such misinformation.

Another thing, not only does hobby woodworking eat up your cash it also eats up your time. A modest side table or coffee table can easily take 50 hours plus, something a bit more ambitious like a sideboard or a desk with drawers might take the typical hobbyist 300 plus hours. Based on this forum there are very few hobbyists who complete more than one or possibly two furniture projects a year. It's not much of a return considering everything you have to put in!

It's not Rob Cosman's fault, it's just reality. A lot of aspiring newbies might be better of taking up turning, windsor chair making, or box making. In other words, something that's more focussed, where you can pick up the basic skills with only a week or two of tuition, the equipment and space required is less never ending, and projects are shorter so there's an encouraging cycle of productive learning?

 

[beechman]

I am quite convinced that Paul Sellers and all those who have a down-to-earth, non-elitist and all-embracing view of woodworking will absolutely agree with you!!!
After all he's only had 50 years of experience in woodworking. What does he know?

 

[Tasky]

Then you mentioned Rob Cosman! I do not deny his skill, knowledge or work with the veterans - good on him. BUT I firmly believe that he is wittingly or unwittingly sending hordes of would-be woodworkers to other endeavours because of his ridiculous business model.

I watched some of his DVD series from back in what looked like the 1980s (actually about 10 years ago) and even then it felt like he was trying to make it all about him instead of Alan Peters who he was supposed to be featuring. Same with the veteran stuff, where he likes to have them tell everyone what Rob has done for you.

An example was his "top ten tools" youtube video. I suppose this could have been considered as an introduction to woodworking. I added up the cost of the very tools in his top ten. If memory serves it was over $1,000 !

His web-shop sells this set for about $2,200... and yet it still doesn't contain all Ten Tools!!

But in my view he also has a responsibility to the whole of the woodworking community.

He's openly stated that he basically sells quick-fix junk at massively high prices to people who are old/retired and have lots of money to drop on training wheel solutions that negate the time/need for learning proper techniques.
He also doesn't seem to make or teach anything much beyond Dovetails...

Thanks you YOU LOT on here, I've ended up going mostly hand-tool only. I've yet to buy a brace and things, as I have a power drill for now and until I fully develop my sawing skills I'll use the bandsaw for stuff like ripping long boards.
But thanks to Paul Sellers I've been able to get a fair amount of kit relatively cheap... not quite as cheap as he gets his stuff on eBay, because everyone else is following his example, but if you don't buy top end brand new kit you don't need to pay Cosman amounts of money either.