Ebay Scam or not ???? Advice

[morfa]

If the overseas buyer pays by CHAPS and it is visible in your account on collection then there is practically zero scam risk.

Quoted for truth! I used to work in the financial sector as well. That's why I was suggesting a bank transfer as being the safest way.

I'd also agree about cheques, make sure you wait till it's properly cleared (as most banks will show it in your account before it's fully properly cleared).

 

[Wuffles]

I use (what I call) SWIFT payments frequently for items outside the UK for thousands and thousands of pounds. Money appears with them (in Germany, Italy and Spain) pretty much the same day. I would expect it to be the same the other way.

Fees vary "from" this Country wildly from £30 to £9.50 but the slack is normally taken up with the dire exchange rates offered by the ones that charge less as an upfront fee. None of this matters to you, it was just for reference, as you will be receiving money in this way and not sending. I understand there will be no fee and cannot be clawed back in the same way as that awful awful thing called PayPal.

I've sent items to Italy before now after receiving a payment from them in this way - was a few years ago and wasn't as quick as it is now. I had no qualms about doing it as the money was there and frankly, it was his risk in that I may not send him anything. Luckily for him, I'm not that guy.

So, to clear things up, and bearing in mind I do not work in financial services, CHAPS won't mean a thing to your man there in mainland Europe. Give him your International Banking Account (IBAN) details and he'll be all over it.

 

[kinsella]

chaps
general jist is I'd rather chop up for parts that deal with the hassle. So i think I'll stick to what I put on eBay. I'm not expect big money ie low hundreds. So its now really worth the effort.

Very detailed responses. Thanks. Ebay does get everyone's blood boiling i think.

 

[Jacob]

..... Ebay does get everyone's blood boiling i think.

Not me. Some negatives but some big plusses; I sold a broken-down old Landrover stuck in a back street on a Greek island, for my son (failed expedition!). No probs at all.

 

[AJB Temple]

SWIFT is not available to general consumers / retail customers. It is an inter bank messaging system and can be used for bulk funds instructions. You have to be a member to use it (seriously expensive)
IBAN is just your bank account number in international form.
To make international transfers you will usually need a BOC code as well. This is the bank identifier code and is also known as a SWIFT code.

It doesn't matter what things are called - the key point is that funds must be irrevocably cleared (not capable of call back or reversal) and all banks will understand that concept. CHAPS is widely understood throughout Europe though country names vary. So for big sums always insist on that. This gives you almost zero fraud risk.

 

[iNewbie]

I don't bother selling on eBay, but if I was selling a lathe, it'd be cash on collection or nothing. I'd rather skip it then give some tosser the opportunity to pull a fast one.

I think (only think, I'm not positive) the problem is that Ebay refuse to accept "cash payment only" listings, AFAIK you must offer the buyer a Paypal option or your listing is removed, and if you persist then your Ebay account gets closed. So there's a Catch 22, if the buyer collects and pays Paypal they can then claim that the item was never received, and without a tracking number your stuffed. But if you demand cash the buyer can have the listing closed.

It's a right old mess is what it is!

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/a ... ebay-fraud

Ebay would rather people use Paypal as they get a slice in more ways than one - fees...

From their customer service page -

Other accepted payments:

For items in certain categories (such as Motors or Real Estate) or those picked up in person, sellers can also offer to accept payment on pickup, COD (Cash on Delivery), bank-to-bank transfers, cheques, money orders, or other payment services. However, with these methods, you are not covered by eBay Money Back Guarantee.


I wouldn't ship a lathe overseas, either.

 

[shed9]

Guys. Lots of rubbish in this thread.

As far as I can work out, people had pretty much suggested a path not dissimilar to your own before you chirped in yourself. No need to assert or add weight to your own opinions by dissing others first.

 

[Wuffles]

SWIFT is not available to general consumers / retail customers. It is an inter bank messaging system and can be used for bulk funds instructions. You have to be a member to use it (seriously expensive)
IBAN is just your bank account number in international form.
To make international transfers you will usually need a BOC code as well. This is the bank identifier code and is also known as a SWIFT code.

Better tell Nationwide they're calling it the wrong thing then. Advice remains the same for anyone's future reference. It costs very little to send money abroad, and nothing to receive it using a normal bank/building society.

http://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/pay ... t-payments

Like I said before, I've been making these payments, as a punter, for years now.

 

[MrYorke]

Guys. Lots of rubbish in this thread.

As far as I can work out, people had pretty much suggested a path not dissimilar to your own before you chirped in yourself. No need to assert or add weight to your own opinions by dissing others first.

I agree. Don't think anyone was spouting any rubbish, just good advice.

 

[mind_the_goat]

http://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/payments-and-transfers/specialist-payments/swift-payments

3. Provided there is no negligence on the part of Nationwide and/or its agents, then Nationwide and its agents shall not be liable for any claims or losses arising as a result of money:-

i. not received by the receiving bank or the beneficiary; or
ii. rejected by the receiving bank or beneficiary; or
iii. for any reason, delayed whilst in transmission to the receiving bank or the beneficiary; or
iv. being recalled by you.

Item 4 seems to suggest a recall is still a possibility, but doesn't say anything else about it. I'd definitely want to clarify that before using it to receive money.

Anyway, seems like the OP has decided what to do, anyone have any fruit pictures to share ?

 

[Wuffles]

http://www.nationwide.co.uk/support/payments-and-transfers/specialist-payments/swift-payments

3. Provided there is no negligence on the part of Nationwide and/or its agents, then Nationwide and its agents shall not be liable for any claims or losses arising as a result of money:-

i. not received by the receiving bank or the beneficiary; or
ii. rejected by the receiving bank or beneficiary; or
iii. for any reason, delayed whilst in transmission to the receiving bank or the beneficiary; or
iv. being recalled by you.

Item 4 seems to suggest a recall is still a possibility, but doesn't say anything else about it. I'd definitely want to clarify that before using it to receive money.

Anyway, seems like the OP has decided what to do, anyone have any fruit pictures to share ?

I only posted the link to try and debunk the "SWIFT is not available to general consumers / retail customers" comment, but I take your point.

However, I read it the other way, those only relate to using Nationwide to send money. I've not checked the T&Cs for Halifax for example, whose fees are lower, but their exchange rate sucks on payments over a grand so I avoid them.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

My chief concern would be a reversal of payment. If you use a payment method which removes that potential problem, then the issue that remains (to my eyes), is a potential claim for damage in transit.

It is well known that eBay tend to side with the buyer and lets face it, if you ship a huge piece of machinery to Spain and the customer claims it's damaged and says they want a big discount or they will file a case, what are you going to do? They have you over a barrel. All they have to do is file a claim with eBay and/or paypal and it's then entirely outside of your control. There have been cases, probably many but I know of only a few, where eBay have unilaterally issued a full refund, so the buyer ends up without the item and also the money.

Even assuming the buyer is genuine, what if the item WAS actually damaged in transit. The payment method used is only part of the story.

It's just not worth considering doing, in my opinion. Collection only would be my choice.

 

[AJB Temple]

You cannot make a SWIFT payment. The bank can, but not you. Likewise CHAPS - you can ask the bank to do it (and pay fo rthe safety and speed) but you as a retail consumer cannot initiate it. This is unlike a cheque or cash, or even a BACS instruction if the option is available to you on line. SWIFT is an inter bank mechanism. It is a messaging system not a payment system as such.

I stand by my assertion of rubbish in the thread. The point is people say "it's a scam" without any evidence to suggest that was the case. Of they think cash is safe. That is the real myth. I have dealt with the legal fallout from cases where, for example, people have sold a car for large sums and been paid in cash. Paying some of the cash into the bank (who promptly launch into anti money laundering mode), they discover most of the notes are counterfeit.

This is why I said CHAPS is safe. Take it or leave it. I don't have any reason to seek fall outs on this forum as my post history shows, but it does concern me when people disseminate advice which can lead to losses for others.

 

[heimlaga]

I was once approached like this when I had a small sailboat up for sale on www.findit.fi which is our local Gumtree equivalent.
The prospective buyer claimed to be a Danish sailor curretly at sea but he wrote in English. I know a bit of Danish so I put in a few expressions in Danish in my reply. He didn't react on the things I had told him in Danish so evidently he didn't understand and wasn't a Dane.
Later I learned that this is a common paypal fraud where the buyer claims that he has paid and sends falsified reciepts while no money reaches the seller. The buyer pretends that he is trying to sort things out with Paypal. Then he asks for a refund throgh Western Union and the refund disappears as Western Union has no payback policy.

When I buy secondhand stuff from Sweden I always have a hard time convincing the seller that I am serious and not a conman. It is getting more difficult. Normally I have sent the payment in cash with the courier. That is usually accepted.
The new euro notes are claimed to be very difficult to falsify. I have learned the most difficult safety features so I have a good chance of avoiding false money when recieving payment.

 

[shed9]

I don't have any reason to seek fall outs on this forum as my post history shows, but it does concern me when people disseminate advice which can lead to losses for others.

Where is this disseminated advice which can lead to losses?

People have suggested several forms of different advice and collectively it offers a larger picture to the OP in which to make a more informed decision. Some of this advice will be better than others but none of it is rubbish. By all means, wade in and say your piece but accept that you are not the authority on this subject.

 

[JohnPW]

AFAIA, you're vulnerable with any "collection only" sale because you have no proof of despatch, you don't have the all important (in Paypal/Ebay's eyes) courier tracking number to a registered Ebay address.

So the scam is whoever gets the item then claims it was never sent, Paypal always sides with the buyer and simply raids your account/lodged credit card details to re-imburse them.

The "buyer" may well not even be in Spain, maybe it's just a smokescreen, they turn up at your door pretending to be the courier and waltz off with the lathe, a few days later Ebay/Paypal contact you to ask why you haven't sent it.

Correct. The scam is when the buyer collects in person and pays by Paypal, then claims they never received the goods and gets a refund from Paypal. The seller cannot do anything because they do not have proof that they sent the goods, proof has to be a tracking number etc from Royal Mail/courier etc.

I don't bother selling on eBay, but if I was selling a lathe, it'd be cash on collection or nothing. I'd rather skip it then give some tosser the opportunity to pull a fast one.

I think (only think, I'm not positive) the problem is that Ebay refuse to accept "cash payment only" listings, AFAIK you must offer the buyer a Paypal option or your listing is removed, and if you persist then your Ebay account gets closed. So there's a Catch 22, if the buyer collects and pays Paypal they can then claim that the item was never received, and without a tracking number your stuffed. But if you demand cash the buyer can have the listing closed.

It's a right old mess is what it is!

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/a ... ebay-fraud

Only accept cash if the buyer collects. Yes the problem is the buyer has to offer to accept Paypal and the seller can't stop a buyer from paying by Paypal.

If I wanted to sell collect only, don't offer "free collection in person" but offer delivery by post (ie Royal Mail, courier etc) and obviously put in the appropriate cost, choose an expensive service if the item is not heavy and bulky, which gets added to the winning bid. For a lathe, P&P would be high anyway.

Then in the item description say: the buyer can collect in person and pay cash to save on P&P, if the buyer pays by paypal then the goods will be posted. You emphasise it by putting "collect from xxx" in the listing title.

I would never allow a buyer pay by Paypal and then send their own courier to pick up.

 

[brianhabby]

Only accept cash if the buyer collects. Yes the problem is the buyer has to offer to accept Paypal and the seller can't stop a buyer from paying by Paypal.

I would never allow a buyer pay by Paypal and then send their own courier to pick up.

I simply will not allow the buyer to arrange their own courier, full stop. If I say that the item is to be collected 'in person' and paid for in cash at the time, then that is the way it will be. Plus I will not accept PayPal for such transactions and I state as such in the listing. I have only ever had one buyer pay with PayPal when he was going to collect the item and I refunded his PayPal payment and politely reminded him of my terms and he was fine.

For my part, a big issue with people sending their own courier is the hassle of packing or otherwise making the item safe for transit. Get that wrong and you could still be blamed for damage. Plus, the difficulty with dispatching larger items is not arranging the courier anyway, that is the easy part. The difficulty is packaging it safely.

I recently sold a mobility scooter which breaks down into 5 separate parts, so could theoretically have been boxed by me and sent by courier, but how much work would that be? It would probably take me half a day to pack the thing! In the event, the person who purchased it did ask me to send it, despite the listing stating very clearly that it was collection only. I said I would not dispatch it under any circumstances so they finished up with an eight hour round trip to collect it.

State your terms clearly and stick to them, just as you would in business.

regards

Brian