Dust Extraction 101

[SteveF]

we seem to be inundated with dust extraction questions
wish that we could just have a sticky, but this doesn't seem to be happening
after reading Siggy's thread I am none the wiser
I have the following:
jet afs 500 just to pull the worst out of the air
festool midi attached to my mitre saw
festool ctl 26 used with domino ts55 router (hand held)...general hoovering
in the garage (rubbish dump) i have a plastic bag \ cloth bag type extractor (got it cheap and unused as yet) with 100mm hose,,spec unknown
moving forward during my workshop setup (hobby use)
it is just a minefield
my 14" bandsaw gets hoovered out when full, it has a 100mm outlet unconnected since new
a wadkin 10 ags. it will get a plywood side with 100mm outlet (saw unused as yet)
a router table (recently built) but unused
this is all hobby use

is there a one fix option to sort this out?
the ts\bs will produce dust
the router table will produce chips \ dust

I am happy to run a pipework around workshop or go for individuals
budget is as usual a bit tight , but my health isn't

workshop is only 24m3

Steve

 

[Wizard9999]

after reading Siggy's thread I am none the wiser

I thought it was a very helpful post, what was unclear about it?

Terry.

 

[ColeyS1]

Use the festool on the router table. Use the cloth bag thingy on both your saws. Not sure the cloth bag thingy will like saw dust, but it's gotta be better than nothing !

Coley

 

[MattRoberts]

There is no one fix solution to dust extraction. You need a 4" chip extractor for your tablesaw and bandsaw (and a shroud for your mitre saw if you can) that is 2hp minimum (1.5kw motor) if you're going to be running duct work.

Then your festool Vacs cover your smaller tools.

 

[siggy_7]

Any feedback on what you didn't find clear appreciated. As other responses have suggested, use your cloth bag extractor for stationary machines and Festool vac for power tools. 2hp minimum for your cloth bag extractor if you want to run ducts. For the reasons I gave in my thread, the Festool will give poor extraction for the machines and the chip extractor will be woeful on hand held tools. Given you already have both extractors, I wouldn't recommend switching to a multi motor vacuum extractor for the reasons I gave in my thread.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

 

[SteveF]

Any feedback on what you didn't find clear appreciated. As other responses have suggested, use your cloth bag extractor for stationary machines and Festool vac for power tools. 2hp minimum for your cloth bag extractor if you want to run ducts. For the reasons I gave in my thread, the Festool will give poor extraction for the machines and the chip extractor will be woeful on hand held tools. Given you already have both extractors, I wouldn't recommend switching to a multi motor vacuum extractor for the reasons I gave in my thread.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Hi Siggy

your thread was very useful explaining the 2 types
but
I see some LPHV labelled as fine dust extractor or chip extractor...this is the confusing bit for me
I cant see that I would need a chip extractor on my saws (fine dust)
HPLV on router table? or chip extractor?

Steve

 

[MattRoberts]

LPHV models labelled as fine dust extractors usually have a big filter in them and are more expensive than a standard chip extractor. They're used for big machines like drum sanders that generate a lot of fine dust.

At its most basic, dust extraction comes down to two factors:

1. What size port are you extracting from
2. What size particles do you need to filter

A small port = a shop vac. A large port = chip extractor. A large port with fine dust coming through = chip extractor with a fine dust filter

 

[graduate_owner]

I wonder if the problem faced by Steve is that, like me, he approached the dust extraction issue from a position of inadequate knowledge. He has bought dust extraction kit and now finds it may not be suitable for his needs. I did the same thing. If I was starting again I would invest in a 2HP or mors centralised system, but as things stand I have bought various pieces of kit which provide only a partial solution - I bought a new 63mm duct size extractor and duct set from Axminster a few years ago, advertised as 0.5 micron filtering and 'could form the heart of a complete extraction system for the smaller workshop' - (not verbatim). However it is just not up to the job of collecting adequately when connected diectly to one machine, never mind losses due do bends and blast gates. I boughf a second hand Kity extractor and found out later it is not suitable for fine dust and is really a chip extractor. That is OK as it is connected to my pt or spindle moulder (I bought a second hand Kity spindle in a car boot sale for £30). However that is 2 machines that take up space and don't do the completd job. Since then I have got hold of another chip extractor which I intend to venf directly outside, and have bought an industrial fan for lathe dust extraction, again to be vented outside via a dust separator. The thing is, I can't justify getting rid of all this kit, having paid out for it, albeit gradually, taking a financial loss, and then splashing out another load of cash buying the bees knees. So I am making the best of what I have, which also includes several domestic vacuum cleaners for portable tools etc.
I wonder how many other members have 'drifted' into dust extraction in a similar way anr now feel committed to keep what they have.

K

 

[graduate_owner]

I wonder if the problem faced by Steve is that, like me, he approached the dust extraction issue from a position of inadequate knowledge. He has bought dust extraction kit and now finds it may not be suitable for his needs. I did the same thing. If I was starting again I would invest in a 2HP or mors centralised system, but as things stand I have bought various pieces of kit which provide only a partial solution - I bought a new 63mm duct size extractor and duct set from Axminster a few years ago, advertised as 0.5 micron filtering and 'could form the heart of a complete extraction system for the smaller workshop' - (not verbatim). However it is just not up to the job of collecting adequately when connected diectly to one machine, never mind losses due do bends and blast gates. I boughf a second hand Kity extractor and found out later it is not suitable for fine dust and is really a chip extractor. That is OK as it is connected to my pt or spindle moulder (I bought a second hand Kity spindle in a car boot sale for £30). However that is 2 machines that take up space and don't do the completd job. Since then I have got hold of another chip extractor which I intend to vent directly outside, and have bought an industrial fan for lathe dust extraction, again to be vented outside via a dust separator. The thing is, I can't justify getting rid of all this kit, having paid out for it, albeit gradually, taking a financial loss, and then splashing out another load of cash buying the bees knees. So I am making the best of what I have, which also includes several domestic vacuum cleaners for portable tools etc.
I wonder how many other members have 'drifted' into dust extraction in a similar way anr now feel committed to keep what they have.

K

 

[graduate_owner]

I have no idea why this post has appeared twice.

K

 

[siggy_7]

Thanks for the feedback Steve.

The HPLV/LPHV distinction is to do with how strongly/much the extractor moves air. For machines, you need high flow rate (volume) because the cutters are large and the extraction is generally over a large area. For example, the shroud around a table saw has a much bigger "mouth" than around a shrouded router cutter. More area means you need more flow rate to get the air moving at the same speed into the mouth of the extraction shroud. Speed of air is what determines how well the dust is captured. So to ensure good capture of dust, you need to specify an extractor that gives you good flow rate - i.e. LPHV for machines like table saws.

Once you have captured the dust, you then need to separate the dust from the air flow. LPHV "chip extractors" typically have coarse filtration that aren't good for fine dust produced by saws. To get this fine stuff, you need fine filters (a well designed cyclone will capture most dust but still unlikely to do a great job for the really fine stuff you can't see). If you are aiming to capture fine dust from big saws, you really need to replace the cloth bag filter in a LPHV extractor with a large surface area filter cartridge. This then captures the fine stuff.

Graduate_owner, you make an excellent point that a lot of the marketing of this stuff can be pretty misleading. I'm sure that this misinformation is exacerbating the problem. Good dust extraction isn't hard, but specifying the equipment needs a grounding in the principles involved. Manufacturers keen to build and sell equipment down to a price that hobbyists are willing to pay inevitably leads to some unfortunate shortfalls.

I'll review what I've put in my thread and see if I can amend to make it more helpful on these points.

 

[SteveF]

yes I have just muddled along
I will have to check the power of the chip extractor
the 2 festool hoovers serve a purpose and are great
the jet af500 sits above\ behind lathe and drags the sawdust away from me and seems to do a good job
as I shamefully mentioned I have nothing on bandsaw
tablesaw and router table are both new to me
worse case I can use the chip extractor I have for the bandsaw and get something new for the other 2

Steve

 

[CHJ]

....wish that we could just have a sticky, but this doesn't seem to be happening
.....

The main reason for that is that there is no one solution for any given home workshop and method of members use of equipment, there is no way guidance can be given as 'You must do this' or 'You must use this equipment' the only thing that anyone can do is make you aware that the problem needs addressing, something I think the forum in general does on a regular basis..

Not a Sticky in its own right but there has been a link to a resume of the various things to be considered in the Turning Section Help Sticky listings since 2009 at least judging by the document edit date.

 

[PAC1]

Chas It might be worth a sticky if we had just basic definitions and principles such as HVLP and HPLV cfm, M3/hr, L/s etc and principles such as it is a good idea if the extraction is a minimum of the manufacturer's recommended flow. slow bends are better than sharp bends. Along with some links to Bill Penz and others websites.

 

[SteveF]

Siggy seems to put a fair amount of work into supplying information
it would be a shame for this to slip down the list in the space of a few days

Steve

 

[graduate_owner]

I have to agree with you there SteveF, a well researched and very useful post.

K

 

[SteveF]

as a subject to discuss, it seems to have been done to death and probably stupidly boring for most
but I am sure we spend too much time worrying about the next tool (guilty as charged) and not how we are making sure we stay dust free
seems like Siggy got me inspired and I have spent hours looking at options on the back of his thread
trouble is that you end up on another slippery slope
this seems like scary sharp topics, but for your lungs
just so you know I am not H&S police
whilst setting up my workshop fit for use, I have been working with mdf (occasionally wearing a mask, I hate them) working outside
one days work and I am all bunged up and feel carp
cant even imagine how worse this would be in my workshop with doors closed
not even come close to a decision of how to tackle this, hobby workshop with 6" pipe seems excessive, but also appears a necessity

Steve