Drawer Design and Construction

[Jacob]

...........

Robert Ingham must set the record for combining the highest making skills with the worst design skills. His stuff is impeccably made but fugly beyond belief!

I have to agree Custard. How he makes his stuff is beyond me; just trying to read through the text on some of his old articles in F&C is enough to give me brain ache. His designs are definitely an 'acquired' taste, but a very few are quite respectable, though you can count those on the fingers of one hand. He is though, if you ever meet him, a proper gentleman and scholar - Rob

No doubt he's a nice chap but I wonder if he's another of those modern makers who don't respect tradition sufficiently and end up reinventing the wheel, with great difficulty.

 

[woodbloke66]

No doubt he's a nice chap but I wonder if he's another of those modern makers who don't respect tradition sufficiently and end up reinventing the wheel, with great difficulty.

I'm not sure about that one Jacob. His stuff is incredibly complicated (more wood 'engineering' if that's a term to use?) so he's developed his own unique ways to make his pieces which may or may not incorporate old ways but I suspect there's not many of them. He also damaged his back a long time ago so has to do much of his work from a seated position and as such has developed special jigs which make it easier for him to use seated rather than standing - Rob

 

[Sam R]

No doubt he's a nice chap but I wonder if he's another of those modern makers who don't respect tradition sufficiently and end up reinventing the wheel, with great difficulty.

You've got to laugh sometimes! This is Robert Ingham, not some chump with a top-knot & a Youtube channel. To wit, he was head of teaching when Makepeace set up Parnham and, if asked, will give a analysed answer for every method he uses. By all accounts a brilliant teacher. All that over-the-top stuff of Makepeace's which is as good as it has ever got in terms of standard of making? I'd wager Ingham had a significant role in much of it.

 

[woodbloke66]

No doubt he's a nice chap but I wonder if he's another of those modern makers who don't respect tradition sufficiently and end up reinventing the wheel, with great difficulty.

You've got to laugh sometimes! This is Robert Ingham, not some chump with a top-knot & a Youtube channel. To wit, he was head of teaching when Makepeace set up Parnham and, if asked, will give a analysed answer for every method he uses. By all accounts a brilliant teacher. All that over-the-top stuff of Makepeace's which is as good as it has ever got in terms of standard of making? I'd wager Ingham had a significant role in much of it.

When I was working in the trade, my then boss was an ex-student of Parnham and their nickname for Rob Ingham was very simple...'God' - Rob

 

[Benchwayze]

I wonder who's the chump with the topknot and the YouTube channel? :mrgreen:
Glad I didn't start a YouTube woodwork channel; although I haven't got enough hair for a top knot!

Cheers
John

 

[MikeG.]

I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin............

I'm really struggling to see what you achieve by doing it this way, Rob. Wouldn't it be far simpler to build an undersized conventional box and fit rebated runners? That's what I do when I plant on drawer faces, and puzzle as I have over your way, I just can't see any advantage you gain your way. Building in a muntin into every drawer when they otherwise wouldn't need one just seems an unnecessary faff.

 

[Benchwayze]

I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin............

Building in a muntin into every drawer when they otherwise wouldn't need one just seems an unnecessary faff.

One of the reasons I don't like metal drawer slides. They are a bit of a faff to fit . I realise they can be useful in a kitchen, but they do waste space. So wherever possible I prefer a traditional fitted drawer. However if Rob's method works for him then ok. If it's a good solution then it's progress.

John (hammer)

 

[Bodgers]

The Robert Ingham drawer method that has been mentioned.

Surprised that it is out of print, I only bought my new copy a few months back...

I agree that his design style is a bit strange, but I liked his book, particularly the jig ideas.

 

[Jacob]

Looks slightly insane to me. Doesn't solve any problems, in fact introduces a big one - the bottom will move and either push the ends out or shrink and leave a gap.
I guess Ingham had not spent much time looking at old furniture in need of repair!
Also - looks like the bottom fitted to slots all round, but as the wear is taken on the muntin instead of the edges of the drawer sides, he can get away with this weak detail.
A slight improvement would be to have the bottom grain going end to end as there would be less shrinkage across the narrows, and 4 slots to accommodate this, rather than two, end to end.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I've been making drawers with lapped dovetail fronts and with the back held in a simple housing in each side. The sides extend beyond the back which means there's a bit less space but also that it's unlikely the drawer will be pulled right out. Also I've been making the back less tall so the base gets pinned to the bottom of the back.

Now I've seen various references to having the back dovetailed as well. Is this the more traditional method for good quality work ? Does the entire base fit in a groove or is the back made less tall ? Also is there a way to prevent the drawer from being pulled out - I think I've seen a method where the drawer has to be tilted to slide in and as it's pulled out it meets a stop on the cabinet frame.

I build very traditional drawers: half lap at the front, lapped at the rear, and slips at the sides into a groove at the front ....

The photo shows the rear of the drawer, sans the drawer bottom. The drawer bottom is solid wood, and the grain runs across from side-to-side for expansion. The drawer sides are are thin, usually 6mm, which is why slips are used (as they are too thin to be grooved). I use quartersawn timber for drawer sides.

Here the drawer bottom is in. The junction between the drawer slip and bottom received a moulding (bead) to disguise the join. The front of the bottom is captured in the groove behind the drawer front ...

The drawer back is lower than the sides, and the ends are chamfered, to make it easier to insert ...

The lapped dovetails at the rear are set with the lowermost dovetail a half tail/pin above the drawer bottom. This drawer is from the Apothecary Chest and, being small, the sides were grooved and not slipped ...

I do use a screw at the rear. This is in an enlarged hole to allow for expansion ...

Lastly, I have begun making an adjustable drawer stop which is attached behind the drawer front. This is my design ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[custard]

Love the drawers Derek, but less enamoured with the drawer stop.

Your drawer construction is the way I make drawers, and also the way 90% plus of top end furniture makers make drawers, so no debate there.

But the adjustable drawer stop I'm not so taken with. Given that the stop will shrink slightly and slacken the grip of the screw, it seems a banker's bet that the impact of the drawer will push the stop back over time. Instead this the way almost every maker I know makes drawer stops (and the way I also see the job done in most antiques).

The stop drops into a small mortice that's pre-cut into the component before assembly,

You have an initial fit of the drawer with the stops left as a push fit in the mortices,

Measure and calculate the amount that the stop needs to be planed back (actually you do this at both sides separately as in all but the smallest drawer there'll be two stops),

Remove and plane the drawer stop accordingly,

When the fit is perfect glue-in the drawer stop,

 

[woodbloke66]

I now build my drawers using a rail housed into the carcase: the rail then runs in a groove underneath the centre drawer muntin............

I'm really struggling to see what you achieve by doing it this way, Rob. Wouldn't it be far simpler to build an undersized conventional box and fit rebated runners? That's what I do when I plant on drawer faces, and puzzle as I have over your way, I just can't see any advantage you gain your way. Building in a muntin into every drawer when they otherwise wouldn't need one just seems an unnecessary faff.

Yes Mike, it is a faff, agreed, but I like doing my drawers this way! Rebated runners on the drawer sides, in my very 'umble opinion is the stuff of Argos bedroom furniture (and I've just dismantled a complete old suite) and Ikea (now about to wash gob out with soap and water :lol: ) Of necessity, you have to make the drawer sides as thick as a docker's jam butty (no offence intended to any dockers) to accommodate the rebate(s) and leave enough 'meat' to provide an adequately strong drawer and then there's the inherent lateral 'slop' with twin rebates on the drawer sides. Not for me, thanks.

Looks slightly insane to me. Doesn't solve any problems, in fact introduces a big one - the bottom will move and either push the ends out or shrink and leave a gap.
I guess Ingham had not spent much time looking at old furniture in need of repair!
Also - looks like the bottom fitted to slots all round, but as the wear is taken on the muntin instead of the edges of the drawer sides, he can get away with this weak detail.
A slight improvement would be to have the bottom grain going end to end as there would be less shrinkage across the narrows, and 4 slots to accommodate this, rather than two, end to end.

Yep, the illustration shows the drawer bottoms fitted into slots, but if you look at my pic above, the sides are around 7mm (and you can go to six if needed) with decent 12mm wide oak drawer slips glued in place on the sides and front, so the wear area widthon any one drawer side is about 20mm. I use decent quality, very dry CoL for most of my drawers (the one above is oak) for anything coming into contact with clothing and there isn't any shrinkage worth noting - Rob

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

But the adjustable drawer stop I'm not so taken with. Given that the stop will shrink slightly and slacken the grip of the screw, it seems a banker's bet that the impact of the drawer will push the stop back over time..

Custard, you may be right ... but why I designed these stops was their adjustability. If they move, they can be adjusted.

The reason I made them, was for the curved drawers of the Apothecary Chest. The stop you showed is what I have also done over the years. In recent years I began to make drawers with bow fronts (busy on 8 more at this time!). It was evident to me that a standard stop would be difficult to set up with curved drawer fronts.

Below is a curved drawer (which belongs to the Lingerie Chest). This did not need a stop since it uses the drawer blade for this ...

That is nice work you show, by-the-way. You always show nice work!

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[MikeG.]

.......Yes Mike, it is a faff, agreed, but I like doing my drawers this way! Rebated runners on the drawer sides, in my very 'umble opinion is the stuff of Argos bedroom furniture (and I've just dismantled a complete old suite) and Ikea (now about to wash gob out with soap and water :lol: ) Of necessity, you have to make the drawer sides as thick as a docker's jam butty (no offence intended to any dockers) to accommodate the rebate(s) and leave enough 'meat' to provide an adequately strong drawer and then there's the inherent lateral 'slop' with twin rebates on the drawer sides. Not for me, thanks..........

You've misunderstood, Rob. The rebate is in otherwise- orthodox runners at the bottom of the frame opening, supporting the bottom edges of the drawer box. There is no rebate in the side of the drawers. I completely agree with you about the latter, but it's not what I was suggesting.

 

[AndyT]

A few years ago, I made a little five drawer bedside chest of drawers as my first go at "proper" wooden drawer construction. I used dovetails front and back, solid bottoms and planted on drawer slips. I wrote it all up at some length in the projects section as I went along.
One point came up in discussion that's not been mentioned this time round. It's the old technique of making the back of the chest very slightly wider than the front, so that drawers slide easily while fitting precisely at the front, where it shows. There's a thread on just this topic here:

fitting-drawers-wider-at-the-back-t88152.html?start=0

 

[woodbloke66]

A few years ago, I made a little five drawer bedside chest of drawers as my first go at "proper" wooden drawer construction. I used dovetails front and back, solid bottoms and planted on drawer slips. I wrote it all up at some length in the projects section as I went along.
One point came up in discussion that's not been mentioned this time round. It's the old technique of making the back of the chest very slightly wider than the front, so that drawers slide easily while fitting precisely at the front, where it shows. There's a thread on just this topic here:

fitting-drawers-wider-at-the-back-t88152.html?start=0

Yep, an established technique but build Inghamish drawers and you don't need to...simples - Rob

 

[Jacob]

A few years ago, I made a little five drawer bedside chest of drawers as my first go at "proper" wooden drawer construction. I used dovetails front and back, solid bottoms and planted on drawer slips. I wrote it all up at some length in the projects section as I went along.
One point came up in discussion that's not been mentioned this time round. It's the old technique of making the back of the chest very slightly wider than the front, so that drawers slide easily while fitting precisely at the front, where it shows. There's a thread on just this topic here:

fitting-drawers-wider-at-the-back-t88152.html?start=0

Yep, an established technique but build Inghamish drawers and you don't need to...simples - Rob

Nope. Just another of those old tales which never go away. Obvious really - if it was a good idea at all then it would be much easier to make the drawers narrower instead.

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi GK.

You should be able to find a copy of 'Cabinetmaking for Beginners' by Charles H Hayward.
In that book there is an easy to follow chapter on basic drawer making. What we might call a WIP or step-by-step. The drawings are also clear and easy to understand.

That's where I first learned his way. (Whilst still at school. Though it might have been in one of Haywards other books.) They aren't expensive and worth their weight in Cuban Mahogany!

Suggest Amazon, Abebooks.co.uk or eBay.

HTH

John (hammer)

Shame... I am not back at home yet, but I have two or three copies of this book and you could have had one of those for a pint! But abebooks.co.uk usually have them if not eBay.

John