dovetail jig
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Have you tried cutting them by hand? Double up planks fir the tails and gang cut them to speed it up and help with accuracy. With very little practice you can quickly cut them for boxes probably far faster than setting up a jig.
Glynne
Established Member
Gifkin's jigs go down to 2mm (I think), but despite owning a larger version I still think hand cut are better - unless of course you're on a production line.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
They are easy to do free hand and look a lot nicer even if they end up a bit irregular.
Nobody need a DT jig unless they are into mass production sh|te furniture, with unskilled workers.
For one offs or short runs they'd make the work more difficult, not less.
Nobody need a DT jig unless they are into mass production sh|te furniture, with unskilled workers.
For one offs or short runs they'd make the work more difficult, not less.
MattRoberts
Established Member
The trend jigs won't - they go to 12mm min
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
They come in all shapes and sizes, there are no rules, except where strength is required they are made more substantial, but for light loads such as drawer sides they can be very light "single kerf" cut.gjhimages":2mgoi9a0 said:
Have a look at old furniture. Google "old dovetail joints".
They are very fashionable amongst amateur woodworkers so if you just google "dovetail joints" without the "old" you get a lot of fancy non traditional varieties, which you can ignore if you wish.
You also get a lot of theories about how they should be done but you can ignore most of these too!
Wikipedia gets it wrong - this quote below is nonsense - if you bother to look at old furniture and measure the angles you'll find they vary from close to 90º ("box" joint) to 45º ish which is a bit too shallow as corners can break off.
The angle of slope varies according to the wood used. Typically the slope is 1:6 for softwoods and a shallower 1:8 slope for hardwoods. Often a slope of 1:7 is used as a compromise."
Eric The Viking
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Jacob is bang-on: I often wonder, "How did I get that done so quickly, when I didn't have machine tools?"
The answer is straightforward - there was no setup time nor fiddling around. And I probably wasted a lot less material too.
If you want to splash out, get a nice Japanese rip saw (suitable for dovetails in hardwood). I've come to them late in life and they're wonderful - less effort, beautiful finish, and as accurate as I could possibly manage. There are a few guides for them too, that help keep the saw perpendicular to the work. I haven't tried, but there's one disc-shaped Japanese one that's been around for a long while, so probably works well.
I also got some very cheap s/h 1/4" chisels that I've re-ground to skews, to get into the corners, but even they're a bit of a luxury - I'm sure Jacob will tell you they're not necessary.
And hand tools let you listen to the afternoon play on Radio 4 at the same time - try doing that next to the router table!
Thirty quid would see you well set up, and pretty smug when you make your first really nice joint.
E.
The answer is straightforward - there was no setup time nor fiddling around. And I probably wasted a lot less material too.
If you want to splash out, get a nice Japanese rip saw (suitable for dovetails in hardwood). I've come to them late in life and they're wonderful - less effort, beautiful finish, and as accurate as I could possibly manage. There are a few guides for them too, that help keep the saw perpendicular to the work. I haven't tried, but there's one disc-shaped Japanese one that's been around for a long while, so probably works well.
I also got some very cheap s/h 1/4" chisels that I've re-ground to skews, to get into the corners, but even they're a bit of a luxury - I'm sure Jacob will tell you they're not necessary.
And hand tools let you listen to the afternoon play on Radio 4 at the same time - try doing that next to the router table!
Thirty quid would see you well set up, and pretty smug when you make your first really nice joint.
E.
John15
Established Member
There are lots of hand cut dovetails on Youtube. The UK ones are mostly very instructive, the American ones less so.
John
John
custard
Established Member
There's an inverse relationship between the thickness of the stock and the complexity of hand cutting through dovetails. That's because the most difficult bit is keeping the saw perfectly perpendicular to the workpiece throughout the cut. 6mm thick stock is an absolute doddle. 12mm thick is good practise stock for beginners. 18-24mm thick you need to concentrate. 30mm plus is tricky if you're aiming for flawless, gap free dovetails.
Glynne
Established Member
As someone needs to stick their head above the parapet, I'll go first.
I cut tails first as I find it easier to mark the pins from the tails rather than the other way around. But like most things, there are pros and cons and you will find differing arguments hence the "go on ask" comment from Jonny. Nowhere near as contentious as sharpening but it can still raise blood pressure in certain quarters.
I cut tails first as I find it easier to mark the pins from the tails rather than the other way around. But like most things, there are pros and cons and you will find differing arguments hence the "go on ask" comment from Jonny. Nowhere near as contentious as sharpening but it can still raise blood pressure in certain quarters.
I also cut the tails first. I place both boards together that will receive the tails. I mark out using pencil. The two boards together help to cut straight across without being on an angle. The greater distance emphasising and out of alignment. If I where starting out I would then scribe the lines on top of the grain with a knife, then on the waste side of the wood use a chisel to flick out to create a 'knife wall' this allows the saw to start in a kerf so your sure it's correctly aligned and then all you have to do is concentrate on is cutting vertically. The trick I feel is to sight down the top of the saw, not looking to one side or the other but absolutely on top of the saw. If you look to one side or the other your body moves and you will not saw straight. (Until muscle memory kicks in) before you start sawing make sure you align the wood so the marks of the tails are on one side of the tail vertical, again this helps a lit with sawing accuracy. You can see a very small variance from vertical, but you can't see off vertical if your cutting off vertical to compensate for the clamping of the wood. Cut all tails in one side, adjust the wood and cut the other.
Now mark the pins with a knife. Again create a knife wall, this time on both the line you have scribed from the tails and also along the edge (grain) of the wood. Now cut the pins. The knife walls will help to keep the saw aligned, and cutting vertically really helps.
I'm fairly sure that if you follow this method you will get dovetails that fit straight from the saw, without any adjustment necessary of the walls of the pins / tails.
If you cut the pins first, you can't gang cut the tails, which is more time consuming
Now mark the pins with a knife. Again create a knife wall, this time on both the line you have scribed from the tails and also along the edge (grain) of the wood. Now cut the pins. The knife walls will help to keep the saw aligned, and cutting vertically really helps.
I'm fairly sure that if you follow this method you will get dovetails that fit straight from the saw, without any adjustment necessary of the walls of the pins / tails.
If you cut the pins first, you can't gang cut the tails, which is more time consuming
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Tails first but I tend to think of it as pins and pin-holes (between the "tails") and so it's pin holes first.
From looking at old stuff I'm pretty sure that's how it was done traditionally, in pairs as deema describes; usually the two sides of a drawer.
From looking at old stuff I'm pretty sure that's how it was done traditionally, in pairs as deema describes; usually the two sides of a drawer.
woodbrains
Established Member
Hello,
Pins first, trust me, it is best.
1, see Custard's comments above, the thicker the stock the harder it becomes, so gang cutting is just doubling the thickness of your stock, doh! The time saving is negligible anyway, it takes longer to cut through double the thickness (more strokes) cutting the waste and paring to the baseline has to be done for each dovetail just the same.
2, marking the tails through the larger gaps in the pin board is vastly easier, especially with London pattern dovetails (single entry) try getting a knife which has a blade thicker than a saw blade into a single saw kerf dovetail. Japanese sawn tails -forget it!
3, there is more chance of a sawing error in the tail sockets, so done first can be corrected when marking the tails. Cut the tails first and any sawing error in the sockets are for keeps.
4 it is easier to mark and see the mark in side grain than end grain. A knife mark in end grain oak, say, needs a lot of pressure to see it. Pins can be marked in pencil, if cut first and then knifed through to the tails.
5, some dovetails cannot be cut tails first, such as secret mitred or double lapped ones, so why not have a single, universal method?
Of course dovetails can and are cut the other way around successfully by many craftsmen, so perhaps you just have to try both and find out for yourself. But I used to cut tails first and after I changed to pins first I won't go back, if you paid me.
Mike.
Pins first, trust me, it is best.
1, see Custard's comments above, the thicker the stock the harder it becomes, so gang cutting is just doubling the thickness of your stock, doh! The time saving is negligible anyway, it takes longer to cut through double the thickness (more strokes) cutting the waste and paring to the baseline has to be done for each dovetail just the same.
2, marking the tails through the larger gaps in the pin board is vastly easier, especially with London pattern dovetails (single entry) try getting a knife which has a blade thicker than a saw blade into a single saw kerf dovetail. Japanese sawn tails -forget it!
3, there is more chance of a sawing error in the tail sockets, so done first can be corrected when marking the tails. Cut the tails first and any sawing error in the sockets are for keeps.
4 it is easier to mark and see the mark in side grain than end grain. A knife mark in end grain oak, say, needs a lot of pressure to see it. Pins can be marked in pencil, if cut first and then knifed through to the tails.
5, some dovetails cannot be cut tails first, such as secret mitred or double lapped ones, so why not have a single, universal method?
Of course dovetails can and are cut the other way around successfully by many craftsmen, so perhaps you just have to try both and find out for yourself. But I used to cut tails first and after I changed to pins first I won't go back, if you paid me.
Mike.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
I've looked at a lot of old DTs - almost entirely drawers sides, and they all look to be cut pin holes first and in pairs. Never more than two at a time..woodbrains":3cc3fy5v said:
The thin single kerf ones are most common because they are easiest and quickest - only one line to mark up (or guess), not two.
If you can't mark through them you are obviously using the wrong kit - so yes, forget it! :lol:
Really not a problem at all; a scribe pin is handy - I use an old dart (without the feathers), or a square ended thin craft knife if they are really fine - you stab it in chisel fashion - "cutting" a line knife fashion is more difficult.
Chip shop
Established Member
Jacob":lt2hqi2d said:
The Veritas Dart...amazing commercial opportunity.
I'm a tails first man myself, and, obviously, I'm right. (hammer)
Sorry I was being mischievous with my comment.
So I may as well man-up and state that I'm a tails first kinda guy. Coz that's the way I was taught when I did my advanced craft many moons ago (along with some useless joints I've never needed to do), and am so brainwashed I'm yet to try pin(holes) first.
Does anyone rabbet their boards before cutting the tails? I remember reading a Chris Schwarz article on pins or tails first, and he mentioned rabbeting the tails board. I didn't quite understand what he meant or what was the advantage - something to do with making transferring the marks for the pin holes easier.
Jonny
So I may as well man-up and state that I'm a tails first kinda guy. Coz that's the way I was taught when I did my advanced craft many moons ago (along with some useless joints I've never needed to do), and am so brainwashed I'm yet to try pin(holes) first.
Does anyone rabbet their boards before cutting the tails? I remember reading a Chris Schwarz article on pins or tails first, and he mentioned rabbeting the tails board. I didn't quite understand what he meant or what was the advantage - something to do with making transferring the marks for the pin holes easier.
Jonny
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