Double glazed timber casements

[LBCarpentry]

I have A question for carpenters and site joiners really.

How many of you get asked to make New timber casements (Normally double glazed) but for existing timber frames?

I do loads of this stuff. And i can currently make a traditional style (Georgian bar, sash etc), with a DG unit in a casement as thin as 35mm depth. Once fitted into existing frames, you couldn’t tell the difference. They are great frankly. A fraction of the cost of full windows, and a great way around conservation planning as (in my city at least) no planning is needed.

I am considering an online shop, where professionals can order their own casements. They will be made, and sent out, without glass. The idea being that there is a fast turnaround, are relatively cheap but also made to traditional proportions with PROPER glazing bars. I haven't seen anything online for this.

Are you that person? Would you use something like this? Mainly a research question.....

 

[Trevanion]

I call that kind of work "thank you very much" jobs and I try to avoid stuff like that like the plague as it just doesn't pay by the time you've gone to all the hassle of fitting it on site and you're really left with is a thanks. I've made a habit of not taking on work that insignificant so I never really get asked or recommended to do that kind of thing so I wouldn't be the one to ask whether there's much demand for it. You could argue that by doing that kind of work I might net a bigger fish from doing it down the line but I've come to the conclusion that I'll let some other poor sod do the botching work and there will be a decent chance he won't be kitted out to do larger work than hobbyist level stuff and I might end up with the big work down the line anyway so it all comes back in the end, at least it does in my head and I don't lose sleep over it.

I'm not trying to discourage at all, I personally wouldn't see it working around here since people tend to just have the whole window(s) replaced if for nothing more than just a bit of a bragging right on the street, but it might work well where you come from.

 

[LBCarpentry]

Interesting point.

We mainly starting doing these jobs around 2 years ago. Like you, I was really not into And considered it a botch job - Full window or nothing. But once we started getting into it regularly, and working out those little tricks to improve and speed the process, the orders started flying in.

We are fortunate enough to Only work in conservation areas, and tackling the double glazing issue this way really does retain the character of the building a lot better. We often tie it in with basic window frame repairs (dry flex of course) and I contract the decorators. We do actually do a thorough job of it and I’m genuinely always impressed with the outcome. One of the biggest advantages is we don’t have to go through conservation planning, which would often be knocking on for 12 months when we were making full windows. Now we get recognition for our conservation credentials from the local council and various conservation societies.

And regarding insignificance - our last job was over 20k, a magazine article and a local award for conservation So your right - they are thank you very much jobs :wink: :wink:

 

[LBCarpentry]

But this is why I’m asking - because I’m not sure if we’re the only ones doing it, and whether there is a market for it

 

[AndyT]

Our neighbours had new dg sashes made and fitted into original boxes. Victorian, so single large panes. Don't know who did it (over 10 years ago) but there are a few Bristol companies it might have been.
It looks a sensible option to me. Far less disruptive and a quicker job. Only downside is the loss of old ripply glass, which is presumably too thin to use in a dg unit, at about 3mm, and difficult to salvage.

How do you manage proper glazing bars? Do you make tiny dg units? If not, how do you prevent the bars from looking stuck-on?

 

[Trevanion]

And regarding insignificance - our last job was over 20k, a magazine article and a local award for conservation So your right - they are thank you very much jobs :wink: :wink:

Well it's not really insignificant if it's over 20ks worth of work is it, I was more on about one or two casements here or there not being worth the effort.

But then if you've got work of your own of that scale going on already why are you even considering bothering to branch out? I certainly wouldn't want the extra millstone around my neck of an online business and dealing with people you never meet in person when I've already got a good little earner going already.

 

[LBCarpentry]

How do you manage proper glazing bars? Do you make tiny dg units? If not, how do you prevent the bars from looking stuck-on?

We use what is called a “heritage” or “slimline” unit. They are as thin as 12mm overall (4,4,4). They have a sightline of 8mm, so really thin around the edges. Our glass rebates are 9mm which means we can make proper glazing bars, 22 - 25mm wide as standard. All our glass is now made as individual panes and we putty them in traditionally.

Where glazing bars cross, such as down the centre of a 6 panel Georgian casement, I have worked out a genius combo between a half lap and 4 way mitre so the joint is strong as anything. Once you get your head around it and set up on the panel saw your away.

 

[AndyT]

Thanks. Any pictures?

 

[LBCarpentry]

And regarding insignificance - our last job was over 20k, a magazine article and a local award for conservation So your right - they are thank you very much jobs :wink: :wink:

Well it's not really insignificant if it's over 20ks worth of work is it, I was more on about one or two casements here or there not being worth the effort.

But then if you've got work of your own of that scale going on already why are you even considering bothering to branch out? I certainly wouldn't want the extra millstone around my neck of an online business and dealing with people you never meet in person when I've already got a good little earner going already.

Well my friend, we are business men are we not?
It’s starting to make sense to have a mortice, Tenoner and spindle permintently set up for casements, and just have them ready to roll when these jobs come in, big or small.

So now I’m thinking.....operating the machines is the easy part. And when everything is set up, you can knock a sash out in an hour, glued and sanded. Why not pull more casement orders, and employ someone to operate the machines....

 

[Trevanion]

Well my friend, we are business men are we not?
It’s starting to make sense to have a mortice, Tenoner and spindle permintently set up for casements, and just have them ready to roll when these jobs come in, big or small.

It's the most efficient way to work by far! The doors and frames set up permanently on a couple of Sedgwick moulders and tenoners and the casements/sashes and accompanying frames are set up on a quick change-over SCM tenoner and then moulded with bunch of block stacks on a computerised SCM spindle moulder. The machining is the piss-easy bit, the bottleneck is everything afterward which could be solved with a keen whip-hand.

Expanding into what's becoming very popular around here and is stealing work a little, Coming very soon... Aluminum Clad Double and Triple Glazed Windows at a horrendous tooling cost, ouch!

Where glazing bars cross, such as down the centre of a 6 panel Georgian casement, I have worked out a genius combo between a half lap and 4 way mitre so the joint is strong as anything. Once you get your head around it and set up on the panel saw your away.

Where I used to work we had a cracking little machine for that job, a Stegherr KSF Mini. Put in your bar and line up the centre of the cut with the centre line in the machine, clamp in place and push the cutter across the bar, rotate the bar which would also cut the slot at the same time and then push the cutter across the other side of the bar. I'd really recommend one if you can get a hold of one, LB.

[youtube]DstINyDQca0[/youtube]

I don't do too much proper glazing bar work anymore but I do a lot of stick-on but I do like to think I do it neater than most others who stick on both sides, the internal side on mine are cut in tightly with the same scriber knives as the moulding then glued and screwed in place so when it's all painted the internal face is seamless and isn't technically stick-on, the outside face is stick-on, however, but still looks very neat compared to some I've seen.

 

[deema]

I think it’s an excellent idea. I believe money will become very tight very soon, and any work would be welcome for most. It will by the sound of it make a small job into a profitable job, so thank you very much.

 

[LBCarpentry]

That glazing bar machine is exactly the way we do it. There’s a little video on my Instagram page Of the finished result.

Saw a similar set up to the machine at W40 (or whatever it’s called), basically a router on a swing arm. Wanted 5k for it. :shock: My 4 sider cost less than that :lol: But I’m Happy with using panel saw for now.