Domino...worth it or nae?

[ProShop]

Edsutton makes a good point about costs.

In January this year Axminster had a sale of 10% off most things inc the domino which brought it welll under £500,
then Festool had a price increase or two and by the time you've added one or two essential accessories and some dominos and cutters the price is now around £700 ish. Also if you use the bigger dominoes they aren't cheap.

If you only make small items and use it a lot, then it's a good tool, but if it's stuck under the bench most weeks of the year then it's a very expensive toyl.

However, you might be better off with the Mafell doweller as this will make small & large items from cabinets to full size external doors etc and it's as accurate as the domino.

Okay, okay dowels aren't as fashionable as dominoes but they do the same thing and are a lot cheaper.

 

[wizer]

http://lumberjocks.com/projects/21928

 

[woodbloke]

Okay, okay dowels aren't as fashionable as dominoes but they do the same thing and are a lot cheaper.

Sorry, I take issue with this. Dowels are not as good as a domino simply because a dowel will only glue properly at two points on the circumference (assuming a dowel is inserted into the face side of a piece of wood) namely at the top and bottom dead centre of the dowel (where long grain meets long grain) The domino scores because there's a huge amount of long grain/long grain contact in the joint...so it's inherently far stronger when glued which is why it's better - Rob

 

[ProShop]

Rob, I don't see any where in my post that I mentioned dowels were better than dominoes , I said they do the same thing ie, they stick pieces of wood together, both do it successfully.

FWIW I recently re did a couple of simple tests using the dowel & domino in identical joints and I couldn't break either of them.

I demonstrated this some time back at a woodworking event & I invited anyone to have a go and break the joint. No one did.

I tried them using different glues as well. So I'm confident in my previous post.

Ok you'll get more glue on a domino than a dowel but again that's depending on the size used, it's obvious the domino has usually a larger flat surface area. Just to mention the smaller dominoes are not round at their edges they are just a V chamfered edge fitting into a rounded slotted hole.

It's not only the dowel or domino that gets glued, and it depends on what your making as to whether you need that type of strength. so you use more or bigger dowels or more dominoes. One of the The Mafel machines takes dowels up to 16mm and can be much longer than most dominoes. They even do a bigger one .

You'll be hard pressed to break any properly dowelled or dominoe' d joint in reality imho.

When I worked for John Carr many moons ago when we switched to dowelling doors everyone was saying the dowelling system was doomed to failure. Customer complaints would go through the roof etc etc...... but they didn't and the process has become an established manufacturing process, simply because it's not so much the joint but the glues that are used. It might not be traditional, it might seem to some as crap but it works. (I'm not talking about the cheap imports doors here).

The tests that took place between traditionally made doors were at that time very comprehensive and the truth was the dowelling process was as good, and of course the cost savings were huge, which was the whole point really.

 

[crazylilting]

'One Day', I fully intend to tackle a Maloof Rocker and will take great enjoyment sculpted each part and joint.

Would you use your domino on that?

Nice looking desk by the way

 

[FatFreddysCat]

Okay, okay dowels aren't as fashionable as dominoes but they do the same thing and are a lot cheaper.

Sorry, I take issue with this. Dowels are not as good as a domino simply because a dowel will only glue properly at two points on the circumference....

I think that ProShop makes a very valid point, here. Dowels (and for that matter biscuits) are a lot cheaper than Dominos and the need for all that strength simply isn't there. As a case in point we make loads of laminated carcasses (point of sale displays, counters, etc) in MDF which are just screwed together with carcass screws plus with the odd cleat, nothing more, and they just don't fall apart even under the kicking they get in shops, hotels, etc. For run-of the mill box making such as carcasses I just don't see a Domino making any form of economic sense. That goes double for someone like wizer who has to make a lot of furniture for the house. I see no sense in spending £700 plus on a Domino to joint MDF when a £100 biscuit jointer will achieve exactly the same end. A Domino seems to make even less sense if you are only ever doing interior work and already have a half-decent biscuit jointer

As I am setting up a workshop I am interested in the Domino because it seems to be a lower-cost alternative than buying a mortiser and a tenoning table with tooling for the spindle moulder. Unlike biscuits which are beech and therefore unsuitable for exterior joinery, Dominos are available in exterior species. But so are large dowels (and I've read that there is a version of the Mafell DD40 which drills up to 16mm diameter holes). From what I've read a Domino or for that matter a large dowel isn't suitable for very large joinery pieces, but then I don't do them, so I'm still looking for a Domino owner to step forward and make a solid case for buying one. That isn't picking an argument, but what I'd like to see is a reasoned justification from a Domino owner rather than the all too common glorified gloat.

 

[Oryxdesign]

Okay, okay dowels aren't as fashionable as dominoes but they do the same thing and are a lot cheaper.

Sorry, I take issue with this. Dowels are not as good as a domino simply because a dowel will only glue properly at two points on the circumference (assuming a dowel is inserted into the face side of a piece of wood) namely at the top and bottom dead centre of the dowel (where long grain meets long grain) The domino scores because there's a huge amount of long grain/long grain contact in the joint...so it's inherently far stronger when glued which is why it's better - Rob

Rob I think you may have missed one of the key points about why the dom is easier in use than a doweller.
For example if you are building a carcass with 5 dominos in the join you make the first one a tight fit (small waggle) using either the front or back as a datum. The other 4 doms can be fitted with the machine on a larger waggle which means you don't have to worry about accumulative errors.
If you were fitting 5 dowels they all have be be in exactly the right place.
For this reason the dom is more like a biscuit jointer and less like a doweler but with the added stabillity in location.
I think both ways are strong enough but the dom is easier and therefor faster.
Si

 

[FatFreddysCat]

For example if you are building a carcass with 5 dominos in the join you make the first one a tight fit (small waggle) using either the front or back as a datum. The other 4 doms can be fitted with the machine on a larger waggle which means you don't have to worry about accumulative errors.

But isn't the same true of biscuits?

 

[woodbloke]

Rob, I don't see any where in my post that I mentioned dowels were better than dominoes , I said they do the same thing ie, they stick pieces of wood together, both do it successfully.

FWIW I recently re did a couple of simple tests using the dowel & domino in identical joints and I couldn't break either of them.

I demonstrated this some time back at a woodworking event & I invited anyone to have a go and break the joint. No one did.

I tried them using different glues as well. So I'm confident in my previous post.

Ok you'll get more glue on a domino than a dowel but again that's depending on the size used, it's obvious the domino has usually a larger flat surface area. Just to mention the smaller dominoes are not round at their edges they are just a V chamfered edge fitting into a rounded slotted hole.

It's not only the dowel or domino that gets glued, and it depends on what your making as to whether you need that type of strength. so you use more or bigger dowels or more dominoes. One of the The Mafel machines takes dowels up to 16mm and can be much longer than most dominoes. They even do a bigger one .

You'll be hard pressed to break any properly dowelled or dominoe' d joint in reality imho.

When I worked for John Carr many moons ago when we switched to dowelling doors everyone was saying the dowelling system was doomed to failure. Customer complaints would go through the roof etc etc...... but they didn't and the process has become an established manufacturing process, simply because it's not so much the joint but the glues that are used. It might not be traditional, it might seem to some as crap but it works. (I'm not talking about the cheap imports doors here).

The tests that took place between traditionally made doors were at that time very comprehensive and the truth was the dowelling process was as good, and of course the cost savings were huge, which was the whole point really.

This is interesting. If we assume then that modern glues are so powerful that a dowel joint (or domino joint for that matter) can't be broken, what then is the advantage of the Domino machine, bearing in mind it's huge cost? Matthew at WH stocks the Joint Genie kits and I had a very quick look at them the last time I was at Yandles back in April...and I was impressed!
So the next question is... would a dowelling system like the JG perform exactly the same functions as the Domino machine, but at a fraction of the cost? - Rob

 

[Oryxdesign]

Rob
I haven't used a JG but I did look at them a while ago and the do look like a good bit of kit. If speed isn't so important it might be for you.
If you were closer you could come and have a go with my domino or if you have to come to Kent give me a shout.
Si

 

[wizer]

Would you use your domino on that?

No. That was my point.

 

[wizer]

I looked closely at doweling jigs. In fact I bought one that I haven't used yet. Triton make (or made) a doweling machine much like the lamello, which is much cheaper than a Domino, but was not available over here. I still want a domino. So there! :lol:

 

[Petiegolfer]

I brought a Domino and assorted box second hand for £500. It was brand new...I think the chap who owned it had used prehaps 25-30 of the 5x30's.

I have used it to make up inserts for my parents badly laid out 60's built in wardrobes. The outsides still looked great and Ma wanted to keep em but the internals were a complete waste of space

I was able to chop up birch ply, pin hole with the 32 system and then assemble with dominos and pocket hole screws. It was quick accurate and strong and required no glue time. End result was a wardrobe that now swallowed more things...something to make any woman happy

I am currently making a leaflet rack it has taken me 2-3hours to make up all the components...I would not have attempted it if I didnt have the domino.

There are loads of things that I now attempt because of the tools that I have. Tools are an enabler. The domino is particularly good at enabling me to join wood together quickly and acurately. Things get made now that I would not have done prior to having it...I think that is the key.

Dont compare the Domino to other tools...ask yourself the question what will it let you acheive...sorry if this sounds a bit corny but it is a much better way of justifying things.

 

[woodbloke]

Waka's having a bash on the 24 Oct and has a Domino (surprise, surprise :wink: :lol: ) and Paul C is also going with his Dom...so there'll be a couple to have a play with. I'm still interested though in the possibilities of the Joint Genie, because that uses a 'indexing' system similar to the Domino so that dowels can be located exactly on say, two adjacent boards (if you were doing a edge/edge joint) - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

I'm very surprised that anyone thinks a dowel joint is as good as a biscuit or a Domino. I've had a Record #148 dowelling jig since the early 1970 and rate it as one of the best dowelling jigs ever, but virtually stopped using it as soon as I bought a biscuit jointer, also in the 1970s. I still use it occasionally for dowelling but mainly for drilling holes for knock-down fittings and other odd jobs where a hole needs to be drilled precisely.

In my view, a biscuit or Domino joint is far superior to a dowel particularly over time. In my experience, much old furniture that is made with dowel joints simply pulls apart, not because it was poorly made, but because the dowel gives such little long-grain gluing surface. Add to that a bit of swelling and shrinkage over the years and the joint fails.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

... the dowel gives such little long-grain gluing surface. Add to that a bit of swelling and shrinkage over the years and the joint fails.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Agreed Paul, which was my point about long grain to long grain gluing surfaces. But with the advent of very strong modern adhesives I just wonder if this issue is less of a problem than it was years ago? - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

But with the advent of very strong modern adhesives I just wonder if this issue is less of a problem than it was years ago?

I think Alan Peters sums it up well in his book when he talks about the fact that wood never stops moving and construction methods and glueing need to take account of that, which is why he favours loose tongues or tenons and PVA.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[Blister]

And I thought this was about

Pizza


:lol: :lol: 8)

 

[ProShop]

A biscuit better than a dowel, not imho . I've tried that one as well, I can break buiscut joints easily. tbh biscuits V dominoes & dowels it's no contest.


Try making a door with biscuits

Mafels doweling machine is exactly the same as a domino except it drills a perfect hole (or a pair of holes which ever you want) instead of a wagging finger making a slot. It has the same accuracy as the domino when making repeat holes, it works in the same way. In fact Festool had to change the domino shortly after it was launched because they pinched Mafel's alignment system and had to change it for the plastic flipper version.

Both machines are very good as I mentioned before, they just do the same thing. As Oryxdesign mentions you can waggle the slot a bit with a domino.


We us the Mafel more than the Festool. Our Lamello biscuit was made redundant so it got sold a long time ago now.

 

[Karl]

I've been doing a bit of digging, and it seems that offers on the Domino are few and far between.

There are two "offers" i've found.

1) The Domino, cross and trim fences and the Systainer box of domino's with five cutters - £750.

2) As above, but with the mini dust extractor - £900.

Both deals are good value when compare to buying the Domino alone, but I don't think I can bring myself to part with [at least] £750, especially when, as Ed points out, you start to think of the number of other tools you can buy for that kind of cash. A tennoning jig from Rutlands is only £80!

Anybody else found any decent offers?

Cheers

Karl