Dodgy Chisels - Who's Gloating Now?

[Max Power]

Derek , hes had them awhile now, at least several weeks if I recall correctly and it would depend what condition the seller described them in but I'm sure Tom wont lose too much sleep over them anyway. Tom good decision to get the AIs I'm sure you'll gain more pleasure from those than you would ever get from trying to resurrect the others

PS Merry christmas Derek and everyone down under :ho2

 

[wizer]

yep it's been too long now, my fault for not checking them thoroughly.

If I do sell them, then I'll be totally transparent about their condition.

 

[woodbloke]

They are buggered!

They're not buggered at all.

The question is. What will happen if I try to re-flatten the backs,

From a practical furniture maker's perspective you'll waste a lot of time.

The other option is to leave them as they are and re-sell them as 'antiques'.

Why would you do that? Just grind the ends off square until the front flat face is flat enough, the edges about parallel and near enough full width, sharpen them and use them-- the most you're going to lose is about 3/4"- 1" from the length of the most convex ended/narrow width chisel.

The other fact to remember is that people do talk an awful lot of codswallop about how flat the front face of chisels need to be. For most work you only need to worry about getting the 1/2"- 1" of the flat front face to register against the wood you're cutting, and that's when you're paring. For general chisel work, eg, chopping and clearing out waste from mortises, cut-outs, between dovetails, etc, the flatness of the front face isn't very important.

The problem with listening slavishly to the 'flat-back' proponents is that it comes across to me from the way most of them talk that many of them are not serious woodworkers, but they are serious tool fiddlers, tool sharpeners, tool caressers, tool arrangers, tool storers and tool displayers, ie, they're really collectors. Belting and tearing lumps out of wood successfully in the worlds of commercial furniture making, practical amateurs, and everything in between, seldom needs hand tools tuned up to an engineering precision measured with micrometers, electronic laser gizmos and the like to within a couple of thou of an inch. Slainte.

What Richard is saying is quite right...if you look at it from a professional makers aspect. However, there are other viewpoints to consider from a hobbyist viewpoint which may not be of any interest in the least to the pro, such as restoring them to pristine condition - Rob

 

[wizer]

Thanks guys. I guess the main point of my post was to try and find out what would happen if I tried to flatten the back and how it would effect the thickness or shape of the chisel. By far the easiest option is to grind off the end and start again. They will probably still last me a lot of years even if they are very short.

Tho, as I said above, If they have value to a 'collector', then I'd rather let them go and invest in AI's. That way I can add to my collection (did I say that?) over time.

 

[big soft moose]

How much did you pay for them tom ? If its not excessive we'll take them off your hands for the same ammount and use them for chopping mortices in ecodeck (thus keeping our decent chisels away from the nasty stuff) - for that kind of work the backs dont need to be flat and even the uneven edges wouldnt matter that much.

 

[MikeG.]

Richard....Slainte.......Sgian Dubg,

Three cheers! Complete sense.......thanks for saying what I couldn't be bothered with! Chisels are a steel wedge for parting or cutting fibres of timber, and too many are too prissy about them. I've seen the roughest looking things do a really good job, simply because they are sharp.

Mike

 

[wizer]

I've spoken to Martin this morning and he's told me that they'd barely make back what I spent. So I'm going to 'sort them out'. Matthew has kindly offered to put them on his linisher to see whats what. I trust he knows what he's doing and I certainly do not.

This morning we were lounging about and I decided to grab the scary sharp stuff and have a play at the table. I coloured in the back of the large one and then ran it up and down some 120g W&D a few times. This is the result:

So we're perhaps talking about 15mm off the tip to get past the 'back bevel'. That's not too bad in reality. I'm not sure what can be done about the sides? It looks like it's convex in it's width. How much of an issue is that?

Here's a pic of the front if interested

This is the widest, but shortest one. It's also the worst one, so the rest should be fine. I can get on with turning the handles in a few weeks.

 

[wizer]

I've seen the roughest looking things do a really good job, simply because they are sharp.

yehbut Mike, those chisels probably at least had something like a flat back. These were sharpened to a point on both sides. They're also not square, which might not be essential for first fix carpentry, etc. But it's easier to use and get good results from a square chisel with a flat back, surely? Otherwise, why don't I just get a bit of flint and tie it to a branch?

PS, Slainte, is an Irish version of 'Cheers'.

 

[toolsntat]

Hollow grind em(gently with angle grinder) like the Japs do and then flat em off....
Trim the sides if need be :wink:

Probably worth putting an edge on them before and doing some harsh cutting to see if the steel is still up to it :arrow: :arrow:

Andy

 

[jlawrence]

Tom, I'd suggest that as you're not yet allowed to actually do much wood work, playing with these will give you something to do. Over a day or five you can achieve a lot (in terms of flattening the backs) by doing only 10 minutes here and there. That would at least give you something productive to do. If it turns out to be a waste of time then so what - at least it's helped with your recuperation.

 

[devonwoody]

Hi. Wizer, if you are in need of some metallurgy therapy how about this?

circa around 1920, belonged to a coachbuilder, I had the wooden other parts but gave them away in the 70's.

So what is it worth, done much kindling splitting I recall.

 

[Martin Cash]

You can get the backs flat with either the side of a Tormek, as Rob suggested, or an a stationery belt sander (use a coarse grit, such as 80) - hold the back of the blade flat on the surface, then start up the machine.

Forget the sides of the chisel(s) until the back is flat. I also would not be too concerned about thinning out the steel - after all, that is who one seeks in a decent chisel.

Once flat, lap the back on sandpaper to 240, then hone the last 1/2-1" up to as high as you go when honing the bevel.

Now square the sides - easiest way is to mark with engineers blue, scribe a line, and then grind it back on a stationery disk sander.

Finally, sharpen the them all!

I would do all this. My only cost is time, and it could be very satisfying in the end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

First of all my commiserations. It can be heartbreaking to see the damage that someone has inflicted on good tools. It brings to mind the Japanese tradition that a man has to be worthy of his tools and if he is not then he should not have them.
I agree with Derek here. His is the best advice in bringing these chisels back from the brink.
Just one caveat - if the backs are so convex that you are going to spend half a lifetime grinding them and the overall thickness of the chisel becomes too thin - and thus fragile - there is a work around/compromise that you might consider.
The purpose of flattening the back is so that you can remove the wire edge that develops during the sharpening process. This can't happen if the back is not flat. However in this case it is only necessary for the last inch or so to be flat, so as a last resort you might consider devoting your time to this last length of blade. It won't be perfect and you'll have to adjust your sharpening technique, but it will work.
Then each time you sharpen you will flatten a little more of the back, slowly working your way up the length of the chisel as you use it.
I have a beautiful but already thin Mathieson that I use for dovetails. It had been similarly butchered. Re-flattening the entire back would have left it paper thin so the compromise solution was used. It is quite satisfactory - I just need to be conscious of the slight deviation in the back when using it.
If the chisels will stand it and you can afford the time I would opt for Derek's solution.
Keep a pail of water handy as even the belt sander will be prone to overheating the steel. The tip of the blade where it is already thin will burn easily. Let your fingers be your guide - you'll feel how hot it is getting.
Good luck with these.
Happy Xmas
MC

PS I wrote this without reading all the posts - didn't realise that there were three pages - doh! So I have repeated what some others have said and missed the fact that you have made a start on the flattening.
Oh well, I needed the typing practice.
Cheers
MC

 

[BradNaylor]

I'm with Richard and Mike here.

I spend my whole life making furniture, and can honestly say that the main uses I put my chisels to are as follows;

1. Squaring up the corners of a rebate I have cut with a router.

2. Scraping off dried glue and/or filler from a piece of work.

3. Errr... that's about it!



Tom's chisels would be fine for me!

:wink:

 

[JonnyD]

I'm with Richard and Mike here.

I spend my whole life making furniture, and can honestly say that the main uses I put my chisels to are as follows;

1. Squaring up the corners of a rebate I have cut with a router.

2. Scraping off dried glue and/or filler from a piece of work.

3. Errr... that's about it!



Tom's chisels would be fine for me!

:wink:

surely you have forgotten opening tins of paint and filler

cheers

jon

 

[wizer]

1. Squaring up the corners of a rebate I have cut with a router.

You'd have a darned hard job doing that with these n their current state Duncan. They have rounded and arched backs!

Even scraping glue wouldn't be easy, as you'd need to lift the chisel up by about 10 degrees to get the end flush with the surface.

 

[joesoap]

Hi there Wizer
Are they bevel edged , if so then they have been bad used and yes , you have a problem . If not bevelled then they are just roughing firmer chisels where square , cannal and flat is not crucial . Heavy roofing flooring 1st fixing tools of around 40s or earlier by the look of em and not worth doing up imho .
Cheers !