Dodgy Chisels - Who's Gloating Now?

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wizer

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Remember a slap head back whinger gloating about some antique chisels he got for a song?

Well they've not turned out to be quite so gloat worthy. When I got them, I looked them over and realised they'd need a bit of work and I put them away for when I was recovered. When MarkW was round the other day I showed them to him and we (he) discovered that they have been mullered by a complete ***** (no, not me). It looks like whoever used them last thought that to sharpen a chisel, you had to make both faces of the chisel convex.

DSC_0218.JPG


i.e the back had been lifted at the rear whilst running on a stone. So the back essentially also has a bevel!

Not only that but it looks like he also ground the sides, so they taper in on each side.

DSC_0221.JPG


These pics don't show how bad they really are. In short. They are buggered!

The question is. What will happen if I try to re-flatten the backs, seeing as the curve on the back of each chisel comes quite a way back.

Mark suggested that possibly someone with proper milling\grinding facilities might be able to save them.

The other option is to leave them as they are and re-sell them as 'antiques'. Martin, if you're listening, your thoughts on that?
 
What about asking Ray Isles (sp) if he can do anything with them for you, and how much? Though I suspect the cost of machining might be prohibitive.
Other than that some of Matthews 100g lapping film will sort them out, albeit with a lot of elbow grease.
 
The issue, It think, with just lapping the backs is that by the time you get it flat, there will be no usable chisel left. If I can get some short stubby butt chisels out of them, then I'll be happy. But I don't want to do anything if they have value left as is.
 
If they're as bad as you say then you're wasting your time. Why not get them sharp and use them for donkey work and switch to decent chisels when you need a square tool
 
Wizer did you buy the square off the same ebay seller it looks in a poorer condition than the chisels.If you decide to chop them down i would use the thin cut wheels in a 41/2 angle grinder score each face pop them in vice score marks level with vice jaws and give belt with hammer.Which saves putting heat into the steel.cheers john c
ps not my idea David Charlesworth shows this on his blog
 
wizer":1ahob16f said:
The issue, It think, with just lapping the backs is that by the time you get it flat, there will be no usable chisel left. If I can get some short stubby butt chisels out of them, then I'll be happy. But I don't want to do anything if they have value left as is.
I think I'd use a Tormek to just grind away all the crap and make do with some shorter blades. Disappointing I know Tom, but at least you'd end up with some useable chisels. Leaving them as they are though is worse than useless :cry: - Rob
 
Tom,
Merry Xmas to you, sorry they are not quite what you thought. :-( :(
Remind me exactly what they are please, maker, sizes and how many. Do they have handles?
Let me know before you do any work on them!
Cheers,
Martin
 
You can get the backs flat with either the side of a Tormek, as Rob suggested, or an a stationery belt sander (use a coarse grit, such as 80) - hold the back of the blade flat on the surface, then start up the machine.

Forget the sides of the chisel(s) until the back is flat. I also would not be too concerned about thinning out the steel - after all, that is who one seeks in a decent chisel.

Once flat, lap the back on sandpaper to 240, then hone the last 1/2-1" up to as high as you go when honing the bevel.

Now square the sides - easiest way is to mark with engineers blue, scribe a line, and then grind it back on a stationery disk sander.

Finally, sharpen the them all!

I would do all this. My only cost is time, and it could be very satisfying in the end.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
If they turn out not to have any intrinsic value, then my only concern with sorting them out, is their length. The largest width is around 50mm long at present. But even if I have to take of 15mm, I guess they'll still provide a good few years service as butts. More than that with my level of production.

I'm not sure if I could be bothered to do the work (well) or not. If you fancy it, make me an offer (assuming these are pre-war socket chisels).
 
Thinking about it a bit I'd flatten the backs from the tip to the handle you'd end up with a sort of wedge shaped blade, looked at side on, but I'm not sure that matters plus, you wouldn't need to remove so much metal.
 
tom

Before you go spending a lot of time and sweat trying to refurb the back of these chisel ,pick one you think is the worst, take a pic of it before and one when you finish , my reasoning is what appear to be surface pitting from rust might have eaten out the internal metal of the blade making then useless or at the very minimum weak, as you hone the backs see if the pitting is spreading , on the other hand it may just be surface pitting . good luck . :wink: hc
 
I agree with Devonwoody. Think of all the proper woodworking you could be doing in the time it will take to sort them out - even then the steel may turn out to be crap although they do look like they may once have been quality items.

Merry Christmas.

Jim
 
I would do all this. My only cost is time, and it could be very satisfying in the end.
Yep, me too. I've spent plenty of time on crappier chisels than that and ended up with some of my favourite users. The only reason not to do it, apart from your time, is if the chisel is laminated and you'd essentially remove the cutting steel in sorting out the backs - but I don't think that's the case here.

And that square's a disgrace, Tom. [-X Hope Santa brought you a new one. :deer
 
Well I'm afraid I've got to disagree with Derek and Alf. It may cost you nothing but time, but time is a commodity you have a finite amount of.far better Tom to stick these on fleabay and put the money towards some good chisels and use your time more fruitfully doing some woodworking or something else you enjoy :ho2
 
wizer":34m8yq25 said:
They are buggered!

They're not buggered at all.

wizer":34m8yq25 said:
The question is. What will happen if I try to re-flatten the backs,

From a practical furniture maker's perspective you'll waste a lot of time.

wizer":34m8yq25 said:
The other option is to leave them as they are and re-sell them as 'antiques'.

Why would you do that? Just grind the ends off square until the front flat face is flat enough, the edges about parallel and near enough full width, sharpen them and use them-- the most you're going to lose is about 3/4"- 1" from the length of the most convex ended/narrow width chisel.

The other fact to remember is that people do talk an awful lot of codswallop about how flat the front face of chisels need to be. For most work you only need to worry about getting the 1/2"- 1" of the flat front face to register against the wood you're cutting, and that's when you're paring. For general chisel work, eg, chopping and clearing out waste from mortises, cut-outs, between dovetails, etc, the flatness of the front face isn't very important.

The problem with listening slavishly to the 'flat-back' proponents is that it comes across to me from the way most of them talk that many of them are not serious woodworkers, but they are serious tool fiddlers, tool sharpeners, tool caressers, tool arrangers, tool storers and tool displayers, ie, they're really collectors. Belting and tearing lumps out of wood successfully in the worlds of commercial furniture making, practical amateurs, and everything in between, seldom needs hand tools tuned up to an engineering precision measured with micrometers, electronic laser gizmos and the like to within a couple of thou of an inch. Slainte.
 
Well, I agree with Derek and Alf. :lol:

Some of us get just as much fun resurrecting tools that others have given up on. It's not always about making things.
 
Sgian Dubh":3dbsh43j said:
wizer":3dbsh43j said:
The other option is to leave them as they are and re-sell them as 'antiques'.

Why would you do that?

You already answered that question Richard:

Sgian Dubh":3dbsh43j said:
wizer":3dbsh43j said:
The question is. What will happen if I try to re-flatten the backs,

From a practical furniture maker's perspective you'll waste a lot of time.

Part of me would like to 'restore' them. But to be honest, if they can regain what I paid, then I'd rather just sell them on and get a set of AI's. I'm into making things, not restoring tools. I was prepared to do some work on them, but not this much. I don't think I have explained the extent of the 'spear headedness' of these chisels and the picture suggests they are much longer than they actually are. That said, if they're now not worth roughly what I paid, then I will indeed 'restore' them. I'm in no way obsessive about sharpening, which is why I recently downsized to the scary sharp system and am happy with the three grits I have. After playing with a couple of new AI DT chisels today, I can see that they're good tools and that's all I really care about.

PS: The engineers square is shameful, I agree. I must sort out my tool storage. I'm really not sure what happened to it. :duno:
 
Wiser

Return the chisels and get your money back. They are not what you believed them to be. The Seller has a duty to honour a contract. Otherwise, how can you sell them in good conscience?

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
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