Disappointed with a Clifton 420

[Midnight]

Yes, I know. I was wondering why, given it was shoulder planes that are the issue...

once I got the bugs worked out, my Clifton 3110 works pretty well.... but...

it don't hold a candle to my L-N #73...

nuff said...???

 

[MikeW]

Yes, I know. I was wondering why, given it was shoulder planes that are the issue...

once I got the bugs worked out, my Clifton 3110 works pretty well.... but...
it don't hold a candle to my L-N #73... nuff said...???

Nope. Not enough :lol:

I don't own either but I do own a Preston, which I like and works very well.

What would you say are the main differences in use?

Thank you, Mike

 

[David C]

I have not used L-V shoulder planes yet.

However in my experience, NO shoulder plane will work well without a little sole flattening.

The manufacturers grind soles dead flat WITHOUT the lever arm in place.

As soon as working tension is set on the spin wheel, the narrow triangle of metal which supports the blade tip, distorts and a bump appears just behind the throat. If this is a two thou bump, you will not be able to take a one thou shaving.

This also explains why a consistent working tension should be set. Marking the spin wheel with felt tip helps here.

Sole flattening must be done with blade in situ, retracted, and working tension set.

In my opinion, this information should be supplied by the manufacturer.

I strongly believe that knowing how to make a tool work well is much more important than the endless partisan prejudice which pervades the internet. The other fact is that some firms materials, aesthetics and machining are better than others. Better machining and finish usually cost more.

David Charlesworth

 

[Alf]

I have not used L-V shoulder planes yet.

David, would you like to borrow one? As long as you can restrain your laughter at my sharpening, of course. No obligation to give an opinion on it, just for your own interest.

As soon as working tension is set on the spin wheel, the narrow triangle of metal which supports the blade tip, distorts and a bump appears just behind the throat.

The instructions with the L-V's word this as less of a Bad Thing but rather as something to be used to advantage. Viz:

To a small degree, the depth of cut is also influenced by the amount of clamping force applied to the lever cap wheel. As you tighten the wheel, you increase the blade clamping force that, in turn, results in a slight deflection of the blade bed. This is normal and does not affect performance. A very light clamp force will deflect the blade bed 0.0005". A hard clamp force will deflect the blade bed by as much as 0.003". Extremely small adjustments to blade depth can be achieved by changing the blade clamping force.

I think we had some correspondence about it after I'd floundered around the idea in my first review, but can I find it? #-o I really don't know what to think. Instinct says "flat", but in use it seems to be all right. But it's likely that I'm not demanding enough to notice the difference anyway.

In my opinion, this information should be supplied by the manufacturer.

I can see why they'd rather not. "Congratulations, you've just spent over £100 on a finely ground shoulder plane. You now need to flatten it." :lol:

I strongly believe that knowing how to make a tool work well is much more important than the endless partisan prejudice which pervades the internet.

I could take that personally*, but I'll choose to assume it doesn't refer to me...

The other fact is that some firms materials, aesthetics and machining are better than others. Better machining and finish usually cost more.

Indeed. Which brings us back to the high cost of the Clifton considering the finish shown in this thread. :? Is it acceptable? I suppose it depends who you ask.

Cheers, Alf

*Sore point at the moment - again. :roll:

 

[Shady]

Cripes! - I think you must have got out of bed on the wrong side this morning, David... I agree there can be partisan prejudice out there, but I don't sense too much of it in this particular board - it is actually extremely helpful for all those of us who are less expert than yourself to be able to discuss ideas, consider them and reflect on one another's opinions/experiences. I for one know that the internet has improved my awareness of the craft, and my abilities - as an amateur, it's invaluable.

FWIW, however, I completely agree that understanding the mechanics/physics of how the tool works is the key. That said, as a long time owner of all the makes under discussion, here's my 2 pence worth on the issue at hand:

I've said it before, but the level of finish on Cliftons, like their lack of a dedicated website, appears to reflect the sad reality of the UK hand tool industry/environment. (I have a very nice, tuned Clifton number 4 which works fine - but the casting of the rear tote mount is skewed - had to sand the base of the handle to correct the angle) It seems that hand tools are too small and niche to be worth bothering with, excepting the odd bespoke area. Don't get me wrong - they're 'good' tools, but they just miss being the 'loved' tools that the LV/LN appear to become...

LV & LN reflect, I suppose, the benefits of a larger market - but they also reflect the New World's philosophy of what a service industry/company should do to earn it's customers' loyalty: it will be interesting to see what response Ulrich gets from Clifton.

 

[Midnight]

Nope. Not enough

ye can go off some people ya know..

now, bear in mind, it's been a while since I last used either of em, but when I did, they were often used to work the same joint, so it was possible to discount marginal differences in stock etc..

I can't say I've examined the 3110 close enough to tell whether there'sblow out in the casting or not, and to be honest, provided these "flaws" aren't present in any of the working surfaces it really wouldn't bother me...

For the sake of comparing apples with apples I'll try to ignore the differences in material, mass and the lack of adjustable throat in the 3110.

The primary differences are in ease of adjustment and rsultant quality of cut... Both planes use similar adjustment mechanisms; the L-N feels silky smooth straight out of the box while the 3110 feels gritty despite a thorough dousing in degreaser to remove any machining waste...

The differences in adjustment reflect directly in cut quality; the micrometer smoothness in the L-N make it possible to ease the blade just a hairin either direction. The 3110 can over / undershoot the spot you're after quite easily... the gritty feel in the mechanism has an effect similar to preset detents; its all to easy to fall short of or be too far through your desired point...

That said, I should point out that both planes are in "as new" condition; the Clifton may well improve as the mating parts bed in with use... But initial impressions left me feeling that the Clifton was definately "workmanlike" while the L-N felt simply superb.

Last point.... I've learned through experience that both companies have exemplary after-sales servise...

 

[MikeW]

Thanks Mike!

That's what I was looking for. Ease of adjustment isn't just a nicety. That's how the Preston is as well, though from so many years of use there is a small amount of backlash so if I need to lessen the cut I need to back off a tiny bit more than if it was tight and advance to the desired position. But at least it is smooth.

I've never really used the Clifton, though I've hefted it. Used the LN, but only at the woodworking shows. It's not like I need another one...

And as much as I like LV gear, I really like the looks and feel of my Preston and would be apt to get the LN or the Clifton, so you've given me something to look for if I go to buy. And it would be a 3/4" size as my large one is an infill shoulder plane and I have the LN 1/2" and I love 'em both.

Of course, I could always make one...

Thanks again. Mike

 

[Alf]

And as much as I like LV gear, I really like the looks and feel of my Preston

I was just thinking this evening that planes are becoming like routers (of the tailed sort). In an ideal world you could have feature A off this model, and feature B off that one etc, and end up with the perfect shoulder plane. In the meantime all we have is the opportunities to argue like crazy in defence of the one with the features we like best and consider most important. Thank goodness, eh? Or all these fora would be deathly quiet. :lol:

Cheers, Alf

Looking at the world through cider-tinted spectacles and finding it a better place. Hic! ccasion5:

 

[David C]

Thanks Alf for your kind offer and apologies for getting out of bed on the wrong side!

On reflection my last over colourful sentence was a bit OTT, too much seductive alliteration, so hurriedly withdrawn. My main interest is to explain HOW to get good performance from tools

Sole deflection, caused by lever arm tension is a serious issue for all shoulder planes. I am pleased to hear that it is mentioned by L-V.

To check this issue on your own planes, set working tension with the blade just retracted and then examine sole with accurate straight edge or set square blade. almost all planes will exhibit the 'bump behind the throat' which will stop them from taking super fine shavings which we will need in difficult hardwood.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth

 

[Alf]

too much seductive alliteration

Alluring alliteration...? :-k

Cheers, Alf

 

[David C]

Touche......

can't find the acute symbol on my keyboard.

DC

 

[Jarviser]

....a bump appears just behind the throat. If this is a two thou bump, you will not be able to take a one thou shaving.

No sooner said than tried - look at my brand new L-N 073 with 2 rubs on 600 grit - and I thought it was flat! Thanks David, I will finish the job later.

 

[trevtheturner]

Thanks for your picture, Jarviser, which illustrates the point so clearly. As is often said - a picture says a thousand words.

:shock: And on a brand new L-N, no less! :lol:

Cheers,

Trev.

 

[Matt1245]

However, the Clifton I purchased, whilst far from perfect in casting, finishing etc., cut as well as any of my LNs or LVs with no fettling required. To me, the casting imperfections or lack of finishing are of little importance when compared to how it cuts but one definiteyly would be agrieved if paying LN prices for considerably lower quality tools.

But if you bought a new car which had a few dents and scratches here and there, you'd send that back, even though it'd get you from a-b just as easily.

If i was paying that kind of money for a quailty item then i'd expect it to be as close as possible to perfect.

 

[Ulrich]

Derek Brown from Clico Tooling Ltd. has meanwhile answered my report about my problems with the Clifton 420 shoulder plane: They will replace it free of charge as soon as possible - I think that's a kind of customer service worth mentioning here...

Ulrich

 

[Philly]

A good result Ulrich!
Philly

 

[Anonymous]

...P.S. I also don't know much about History, don't know much Biology, don't know much about Science books, don't know much about the French I took, etc etc.

Good thing you left off there--I was gonna have to grab a hanky...

Yeah. Herman's Hermits live on...

Herman's Hermits????? MIIIIIKE!

That was a pale copy of the great Sam Cooke's song!

Check out the scene in the movie "Witness" where Harrison Ford dances with Kelly McGillis to Sam Cooke's version.

Woodworking content: In the above movie, Harrison Ford shows his woodworking chops as he edge joints a board with a woodie plane and a try square. I was amazed until I remembered he was a carpenter turned actor.

PS: I just realized I'm probably the only one here who listened to '50's songs during the '50's.

 

[DaveL]

Ulrich,

Excellent news, enjoy using the new one. 8)

 

[Alf]

"Witness"...

Woodworking content: In the above movie, Harrison Ford shows his woodworking chops as he edge joints a board with a woodie plane and a try square. I was amazed until I remembered he was a carpenter turned actor.

Ah yes, the galoots' movie. I believe there's some sort of plot in it somewhere, but who cares when you can play "spot the tool". :lol:

Ulrich, that's good news.

Cheers, Alf

 

[ike]

but who cares when you can play "spot the tool"

Steady on! - theres no need to talk about Harrison Ford like that.