digital toolshops

[MarcW]

Let us be realistic, a big lump of hand tools are bought via internet. In the early past I ordered some tools here and there over the pond, over the Channel and often enough I got frustrated. No answer after having posted my order, no confirmation that it has been shipped during three days or even three weeks. I paid always the very same day by credit card and the shop owner held my money in his hands the very same day too. Fine, no problem with that, I can click on some marvelous pictures and imagine how well the new tool will be apt to its future jobs.

Then the evil shipping! High rates, 50 dollars for a plane from the States, rapidly more than hundred for some kilos. Now waiting! No tracking number by most shops. Then the parcel service will pass by and you won't be there. You will have to pick it up at half an hour driving. No problem you're awaiting this brandnew tool.

And these questions on order forms: How are you satisfied? How should we handle shipment? Why did you choose us? - Well last time, I wrote, because I know "you're fast and serious". I don't have to say I waited two days till someone got back to me and told me how much would be postage. No tracking number, no information of despatchment, nothing. Today, one week later, nine days after I have paid, no parcel, nothing. And I noted I'd choose fastest shipping method, hm, well the mail on the postage costs told me it would go "standard carriage".

Is it current trade to have to wait two weeks or more to hold in hands a tool that is to you in two days? Yesterday I went to a local store, buying some tools for the job. Hey what a great experience, they knew me and gave me a discount. When I got into the car, the seller came knocking on my door and told me I had forgotten the tools that were already there. I didn't understand, I didn't leave my address, nor did I sign an order, nor did I gave them my credit card information, nor did I pay. I guess I wasn't used to this kind of confidence anymore.

Is it just me to live this or is it common practice that you have to interrupt your weekend battles in the shop? Am I neurotic or are you worried sometimes too?

p.s. I know just one shop where you can be sure to have a tracking number on your laptop the very same day you place your order. So, there is hope...

 

[Harbo]

Sorry to hear of your problems Mark but I have had the complete opposite experience.
Ordering on-line within the UK generally results in the goods being delivered either next day or within two days (Axminster, Screwfix, CHT etc etc.)
Stuff ordered from the across the pond takes a bit longer but I generally request USPS which generally slips under the "added imposed cost radar".
Most send an email with the date when shipped and with a tracking number.
The only slight problem I have had recently was a shipment for a TV which was delayed by the bad weather in the UK. I bought it with free delivery and it was set out by Parcelforce24 - in fact it took 1.5days! - I cannot grumble at that - I could track its progress online.
Just received a LN No.9 this morning from Fine Tool Journal - cost about £178 including postage (USPS) - £263 from CHT! - OK it was shipped on the 18 December but there has been Christmas and New Year in between! Well worth the wait?

Rod

 

[MarcW]

...
Just received a LN No.9 this morning from Fine Tool Journal - cost about £178 including postage (USPS) - £263 from CHT! - OK it was shipped on the 18 December but there has been Christmas and New Year in between! Well worth the wait?

Rod

Nice driveby there Harbo :mrgreen: The #9 is a marvel indeed.

I would not have a problem waiting some days more around those Christmas holidays, actually I did. I know it is a hard season for shops and parcel services. I do not speak of long distance runs, I know they take time. If the shop tells me you have to wait a week or two or even 21 weeks, I accept, because I know. It is more the fact, that you pay and nobody gets back to you within a reasonable time. I got the impression, that it is most important to pay and then there is time and time and...

Good to hear you had luck though. By now I remember there is a second shop which is not bad.

 

[pam niedermayer]

I've ordered from the UK, Scandanavia, Germany, Turkey, Italy, France, Japan, Australia, Canada, and the US for over eight years. Generally shipping is way too high a percentage of the cost of goods, regardless of the origin; whereas a couple of years ago it was more reasonable. My absolute limit is 10% of the item cost, and I cringe at that.

So I think Marc is correct about shipping costs. The other issues I've found are so dependent on the vendor that's it easy to control. The great tool vendors are so great that it pays to support them with as many purchases as possible and punish the others by ignoring them. And Marc, probably time to give up on ebay for a bit.

Pam

 

[Paul Kierstead]

My absolute limit is 10% of the item cost, and I cringe at that.

So, even if the total (including shipping) is less then other places (includiing shipping), you'll still buy those other places as the shipping portion is lower? I have had that happen on several occasions.

I think it is reasonable to look at the final cost, including shipping, taxes, brokerage, etc. If it is reasonable, it is reasonable; it doesn't really matter how it breaks down. A friend of mine orders a fair bit of stuff from China. Recently he bought some traditional silk "shirts" (Kung Fu style, though they were bought for Tai Chi) @ $2/pc. Shipping was much more then that, but the total was still very reasonable; cheaper then the same items imported by local businesses. Other things, like some Record planes (since we were on that recently) are so much cheaper in the UK it is worth getting them shipped to Canada, in spite of the high shipping costs.

Of course, you can just buy more stuff to lower the percentage of shipping

 

[pam niedermayer]

With tools, which is what I thought we were talking about, I always try to buy enough to make the shipping inconsequential. I also do my best to convince the vendor to be smart about shipping costs, especially since I seldom need anything yesterday and don't mind waiting a couple or three weeks for most stuff. This is why I usually run a shopping cart for months, or much longer for vendors like LV, Amazon, where I always have items in the carts; and really don't mind not ordering if I can't make the equation work.

The only things I collect are small/thin/miniature boxwood tools like spokeshaves and planes. So I keep an eye on ebay since most of these items are from the UK and fairly cheap to ship; but often the shipping will be as much as 20%.

Now I can be a bit cavalier about this since I long ago accumulated enough quality tools to figure out some way to get the job done with tools on hand; but I've been known to bite for a spiffy woodworking something someone I trust recommends.

For clothes and books, I try, but it's real difficult to turn down a $30 book for $1 plus $4 shipping or a $200 sweater for $50 plus $8 shipping; so I usually do as you and look at the total cost.

Pam

 

[MarcW]

...
Now I can be a bit cavalier about this since I long ago accumulated enough quality tools to figure out some way to get the job done with tools on hand; but I've been known to bite for a spiffy woodworking something someone I trust recommends.
...
Pam

In my case I got the job done, it was just six mortises to do. Nonetheless I would have preferred using the new tools. Beginning a new project I currently foresee any new additions to my equipment and order exactly those tools, the way I can use them without interrupting work flow. So to speak I buy just in time. Now the mortice chisel was another thing, I had the right size, but the tool wasn't made to make 2 inch deep mortises without losing its handle. I had bought the wrong one. I knew, I had to cope with that one, because nobody could send a chisel within a day...

You are right I will ignore that seller in future and try to buy elsewhere. Maybe I should have bought a whole set of mortice chisels but that wouldn't resolve the problem that a seller could have made me wait in the past.

 

[Wiley Horne]

Hi All,

Well, I'm sympathetic with Marc on this one, and can visualize myself being in that very same situation. Marc knew when his working time window would be (weekend, probably); made the calculation whether he could get his chisels ordered and delivered; placed the order and paid for express shipping to make it happen--and it didn't happen. Then he couldn't get a response from the dealer when he questioned what was going on, and when the dealer finally did reply, it was to say that he had shipped standard rather than express. And express shipping costs a ton of money--you don't do it unless it's very important to you.

Now the dealer, by taking on-line payments, and offering express shipping options, is warranting that he will deliver express service. And he had Marc's money instantly, so his obligation begins at that point--the clock is ticking when he gets paid, or at the next morning's business open.

So I don't think Marc should just suck it up. He ought to have a discussion with the dealer, and explain just what it meant when the dealer decided not to honor the arrangements that he himself had offered. Furthermore, the dealer owes Marc the difference between express shipping and standard shipping--that should be put back on the credit card instantly.

If it's a US dealer, they would expect to get a kick in the pants on this one. My advice is to write the boss of this outfit personally, and have a direct discussion with him. His business would benefit from a frank discussion. And Marc really needs to do it (<.

Wiley

(Edited once to make less strident.)

 

[MarcW]

Wiley and All,

You hit the point at issue. As we surely have the same cultural background here and over there, there is nonetheless considerable difference in daily contact. I'm not very knowledgable on your habits and practices in the States or in GB. In the past I often tried to speak to the seller and explain him my problem. I never wanted to tell the vendor's chief, it would be considered as "not nice" here in my country and would complicate further commerce. Often enough I got "sorry, we had a computer system problem", "thank you for being a wonderful customer", "we shipped right now", "sorry, we had a holiday here" and simple ignorance of my query for discussion. So I was at the point to give up and ignore those shops like Pam recommends. That would have been unfortunate as often I traded to great shops, selling wonderful tools. Wiley, thank you for telling me of your habits.

 

[pam niedermayer]

To me, withdrawing your business is NOT giving up, it's the most effective way to tell the vendor that s/he is not good enough. You also explicitly tell the vendor that you're no longer willing to purchase things from him/her. And you spread the word.

I've found it ridiculous that most of you guys are so unwilling to tell anyone else who the bad vendors are, wailing about not harming his/her ability to do business. My point of view is that I need to do business, too; and bad vendors/actors harm MY ability to do business.

I should know by now not to respond to anonymous and/or unspecific complaints.

Pam

 

[Paul Kierstead]

On the whole, Pam, I do agree with you: we need to name names on bad vendors. Yet, I will admit I rarely do it (for small guys; big guys are fair game), and I see two core reasons:

- I am always afraid it is a singular mistake. Mistakes happen. I don't want to hurt a small business because of a rare error. Of course, the opposite of this is that if I am the only one ever complaining out there, they won't be hurt (I don't have influence, after all) and if there are a lot of us, it isn't a rare error.

- I am always holding out hope they will get better, especially for people starting out. I really believe in small business and like to see them succeed (i.e. survive). There are growing pains. Of course, if not one mentions it, they won't know what to do.

Or maybe I just feel like a cad when I do it. All in all, I'd say name 'em, but I will acknowledge that it is hard to do sometimes.

 

[pam niedermayer]

When you name names you receive the opportunity for others, perhaps more experienced with a given vendor, to respond, both positively and negatively. Often the complainer is shouted down, often supported. To me, that is one of the most valuable benefits of these boards: not only how to do various jobs and which tools do or do not work, but which vendors are pleasing to use. Because of the vociferous reactions (as in "get off this board, b*tch") I've received, I now have to criticize by omission, which is non-precise since I occasionally simply forget to mention some vendor or brand.

All in all, I'd like to see much more transparency.

Pam

 

[Hokie]

It's only human nature that if you do something unethical, such as taking money for express shipping and only providing standard, and do not receive a complaint, you are likely to continue this behavior. In the US, we have so many unethical people that if the seller won't make it right, I will send my credit card company to fight them.

However, living in a very rural and isolated location, I symapthize for those companies that have offered express shippng not realizing how it may be physically impossible to deliver to me in said period of time. I like going to Woodcraft and buying in person when possible, if the difference is about 5%. The guy will pull it out of the cabinet and let you play with it. For used tools, I've just been lucky with ebay, I suppose.

 

[MarcW]

Hi all,

I didn't name the shop which let me start this thread because I wanted to avoid bad rumors about the owner or its employees. I don't know if they trade alike with other customers. I just wanted to let shopowners know I care for details like fast replies and prompt shipment and discussion with their customers. And indeed it was this shop, well the last straw that broke the camel's back. There were others before, an unlucky configuration of the recent past.

I didn't pay express shipping and it was sent standard. No, I noted on the order form, that I wanted the order to be treated fast. And answered to the question: "Why did you choose us?" "Cause you're fast and serious". I surely awaited a reply in less than two days. Then I expected to have a notice of despatchment and possibly a tracking number. I will put them off my shop list once I've got the two mortice chisels, which isn't yet the case at the moment, 11 days after my order. And I will write them.

Cheers

 

[Philipp]

Postage really make me wonder from time to time. Once I asked for postage to the Continent for about 2-3 kgs (snail mail) at R*tl*nds and was offered about 28 pounds :shock: ! Hey, guys, I didn't want you to send your whole store!
Others offer reasonable postage what makes me think that those vendors offering very high postage simply are not interested in the international business but do not dare mention it (or are trying to be so polite not to talk a clear language).

Marc: As we surely have the same cultural background here and over there, there is nonetheless considerable difference in daily contact. I'm not very knowledgable on your habits and practices in the States or in GB.

This I can fully support - but it makes live more exciting . What I am not satisfied with is the discrepancy between the vendor's marketing speech ("all about the customer", "to your whole satisfaction" blah, blah, blah...) and reality which often is poor. I would so much more appreciate a clear - and perhaps in the vendor's ears even impolite - word telling me what is possible and what is not. But that's the cultural difference we have to live with.

I have never placed my orders with vendors charging me unrealistic shipping costs and told myself that I both can live without their tools and have saved money by not ordering more tools . My orders with "Truth" in CAN 8) and "Caelum officinae" in the UK 8) were handled to my full satisfaction: quickly, at reasoable prices and with a good or even great communication.

Interesting thread, really.

Regards
Philipp

 

[MarcW]

I had just a call over the Channel with the vendor of my two Sorby chisels. Just telling him my name and mentioning the two Sorby chisels, he knew quite fast on what it goes. He started and told me the chisels had not been in stock and had to be ordered by Sorby. I said , that I needed the tools fast. He replied: -Then you have to make me better a mail where you tell me it is urgent. I replied: -But I wrote it on the order form, you're business is fast and serious and shipping please "very fast". So he apologized.

Being always upset I wrote a mail mentioning this thread and telling them I will avoid business with them in future.

The chisels should be on travel now... if they won't arrive this week I will give my credit card institute a call...

Yet upset,